Divine Mercy: diary problem/ question
#1
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One passage in particular really bothers me...

Jesus says to St.Faustina...
“Now, I know that it is not for the graces or gifts that you love Me, but because My Will is dearer to you than life. That is why I am uniting Myself with you so intimately as with no other creature.” p.288

...This instantly comes across as an assault on the Blessed Virgin Mary, should it be understood any differently? ...I’m having a hard time, please shed some light on this, It’s like what’s the point of approving a personal revelation worldwide throughout the church when it appears to be seriously questionable.

🤨
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#2
(01-11-2021, 10:17 PM)Machabeus Wrote: One passage in particular really bothers me...

Jesus says to St.Faustina...
“Now, I know that it is not for the graces or gifts that you love Me, but because My Will is dearer to you than life. That is why I am uniting Myself with you so intimately as with no other creature.” p.288

...This instantly comes across as an assault on the Blessed Virgin Mary, should it be understood any differently? ...I’m having a hard time, please shed some light on this, It’s like what’s the point of approving a personal revelation worldwide throughout the church when it appears to be seriously questionable.

🤨

Don't worry, you're not the only one who is bothered by this.

It is good and pious to believe that God loves each and every one of us as if there were only one of us, but to go as far as to imply that no other creature (presumed to be in existence) has been united with Christ as intimately as Sr. Faustina, is downright scandalous. Did not the Mother of God carry Him in her womb? What union could possibly be more intimate than clothing the Second Person of the Trinity with your own flesh?

This is not the only issue that you can find in this Diary. I've pointed out elsewhere on this forum that Sr. Faustina's entrance into the convent is actually in disobedience to her own parents, which is a sin against the Fourth Commandment. Some may argue she was 18 years old, and therefore no longer under her parent's charge, but, Canon Law states one is under the charge of their parents until 21. Therefore, not only does the Diary have some seriously objectionable elements, but the entire thing starts off with filial disobedience.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the charity of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, is the concupiscence of the flesh, and the concupiscence of the eyes, and the pride of life, which is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the concupiscence thereof: but he that doth the will of God, abideth for ever. - 1 John, 2:15-17.
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#3
Ugh, we were gifted a Divine Mercy portrait from our good NO friends.  It's prominent in our room...I always feel slightly unease about it.  Thanks for giving me more of a reason to be unease.  Shame because it is nice to know that in the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus we should place our trust in Thee.


[Image: ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2F...f=1&nofb=1]
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#4
(01-11-2021, 10:17 PM)Machabeus Wrote: One passage in particular really bothers me...

Jesus says to St.Faustina...
“Now, I know that it is not for the graces or gifts that you love Me, but because My Will is dearer to you than life. That is why I am uniting Myself with you so intimately as with no other creature.” p.288

...This instantly comes across as an assault on the Blessed Virgin Mary, should it be understood any differently? ...I’m having a hard time, please shed some light on this, It’s like what’s the point of approving a personal revelation worldwide throughout the church when it appears to be seriously questionable.

🤨

I think this is a similar problem as the Protestants have with Mary remaining a virgin "until" she gave birth.  The way we use certain phrases in English, it gives us a sense of exclusivity that may not be intended.  This phrase might be a little harder to explain away than "until" in the Bible, but I still can see it being read as a form of great affection, not necessarily exclusive.  We overuse superlatives in the context of love.
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#5
(01-11-2021, 10:17 PM)Machabeus Wrote: One passage in particular really bothers me...

Jesus says to St.Faustina...
“Now, I know that it is not for the graces or gifts that you love Me, but because My Will is dearer to you than life. That is why I am uniting Myself with you so intimately as with no other creature.” p.288

...This instantly comes across as an assault on the Blessed Virgin Mary, should it be understood any differently? ...I’m having a hard time, please shed some light on this, It’s like what’s the point of approving a personal revelation worldwide throughout the church when it appears to be seriously questionable.

🤨

It could be that our Lord was referring only to creatures in the Church militant at the time of His communication with her and not necessarily all creatures for all time.
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#6
(01-12-2021, 11:06 AM)ElizabethH Wrote:
(01-11-2021, 10:17 PM)Machabeus Wrote: One passage in particular really bothers me...

Jesus says to St.Faustina...
“Now, I know that it is not for the graces or gifts that you love Me, but because My Will is dearer to you than life. That is why I am uniting Myself with you so intimately as with no other creature.” p.288

...This instantly comes across as an assault on the Blessed Virgin Mary, should it be understood any differently? ...I’m having a hard time, please shed some light on this, It’s like what’s the point of approving a personal revelation worldwide throughout the church when it appears to be seriously questionable.

🤨

It could be that our Lord was referring only to creatures in the Church militant at the time of His communication with her and not necessarily all creatures for all time.

i think you just saved me from taking down my painting! I’d buy that. Actually kinda makes sense.
Thanks!
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#7
Can we find any such language in any other approved apparition/locution?

I know of no other such statement by Our Lord in revealing his Sacred Heart, for instance. In fact, the tone is very different, and not gushing praise for the visionary.

I'd be curious if anyone could find something, because this one of the main reasons why I cannot accept the Divine Mercy as from God.

If one has to twist and turn to interpret a phrase in a theologically-acceptable way, that may save it from error/heresy/blasphemy, but it does not instantly suggest that this is the right interpretation, only a possible one. Worse, from my knowledge of the texts of what was said in Lourdes, Fatima, Rue de Bac, and various other apparitions, one finds mysterious phrases which require study to understand, but none which require us to try to save them from error through interpretation.

I long ago took down any pictures of the Divine Mercy I had, and put up one of the Sacred Heart, which is a devotion absent any serious questions, and with many miraculous results.

The priest at the Church where I attend Mass refuses to bless any image of the Divine Mercy as well, since it was forbidden by the Holy Office under John XXIII, and only through some shady dealings approved under John Paul II (who wanted a Polish Saint and devotion, so arranged for this in Sr Faustina).
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#8
(01-12-2021, 02:18 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Can we find any such language in any other approved apparition/locution?

I know of no other such statement by Our Lord in revealing his Sacred Heart, for instance. In fact, the tone is very different, and not gushing praise for the visionary.

I'd be curious if anyone could find something, because this one of the main reasons why I cannot accept the Divine Mercy as from God.

If one has to twist and turn to interpret a phrase in a theologically-acceptable way, that may save it from error/heresy/blasphemy, but it does not instantly suggest that this is the right interpretation, only a possible one. Worse, from my knowledge of the texts of what was said in Lourdes, Fatima, Rue de Bac, and various other apparitions, one finds mysterious phrases which require study to understand, but none which require us to try to save them from error through interpretation.

I long ago took down any pictures of the Divine Mercy I had, and put up one of the Sacred Heart, which is a devotion absent any serious questions, and with many miraculous results.

The priest at the Church where I attend Mass refuses to bless any image of the Divine Mercy as well, since it was forbidden by the Holy Office under John XXIII, and only through some shady dealings approved under John Paul II (who wanted a Polish Saint and devotion, so arranged for this in Sr Faustina).

Is that really crucial?  I imagine no apparitions besides Fatima spoke of Portugal keeping the faith.  I don't see why unusual language should raise suspicion in and of itself.
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#9
(01-12-2021, 05:04 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(01-12-2021, 02:18 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Can we find any such language in any other approved apparition/locution?

I know of no other such statement by Our Lord in revealing his Sacred Heart, for instance. In fact, the tone is very different, and not gushing praise for the visionary.

I'd be curious if anyone could find something, because this one of the main reasons why I cannot accept the Divine Mercy as from God.

If one has to twist and turn to interpret a phrase in a theologically-acceptable way, that may save it from error/heresy/blasphemy, but it does not instantly suggest that this is the right interpretation, only a possible one. Worse, from my knowledge of the texts of what was said in Lourdes, Fatima, Rue de Bac, and various other apparitions, one finds mysterious phrases which require study to understand, but none which require us to try to save them from error through interpretation.

I long ago took down any pictures of the Divine Mercy I had, and put up one of the Sacred Heart, which is a devotion absent any serious questions, and with many miraculous results.

The priest at the Church where I attend Mass refuses to bless any image of the Divine Mercy as well, since it was forbidden by the Holy Office under John XXIII, and only through some shady dealings approved under John Paul II (who wanted a Polish Saint and devotion, so arranged for this in Sr Faustina).

Is that really crucial?  I imagine no apparitions besides Fatima spoke of Portugal keeping the faith.  I don't see why unusual language should raise suspicion in and of itself.

I think you've missed the point.

If this idea of Our Lord fawning over a particular soul is such a defensible concept, then we would likely see it elsewhere in locutions/apparitions that the Church has approved. I'd just like to see a similar treatment of a soul. From the apparitions/locutions I am familiar with and have the Church's stamp of approval, I know of no such language.

I'm not looking for an exact phrase, but a pattern. If Our Lord does speak so lovingly when he comes to souls in such mystical experiences, then we should see a pattern. If this incident is unusual, then by the very dint of it being unusual, it is worth asking why. Our Lord did say that we should look for fruit, and if some fruit looks unusual, then we shoudl ask if it's good or bad, and not just assume it's fine.
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#10
(01-12-2021, 05:23 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(01-12-2021, 05:04 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(01-12-2021, 02:18 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote: Can we find any such language in any other approved apparition/locution?

I know of no other such statement by Our Lord in revealing his Sacred Heart, for instance. In fact, the tone is very different, and not gushing praise for the visionary.

I'd be curious if anyone could find something, because this one of the main reasons why I cannot accept the Divine Mercy as from God.

If one has to twist and turn to interpret a phrase in a theologically-acceptable way, that may save it from error/heresy/blasphemy, but it does not instantly suggest that this is the right interpretation, only a possible one. Worse, from my knowledge of the texts of what was said in Lourdes, Fatima, Rue de Bac, and various other apparitions, one finds mysterious phrases which require study to understand, but none which require us to try to save them from error through interpretation.

I long ago took down any pictures of the Divine Mercy I had, and put up one of the Sacred Heart, which is a devotion absent any serious questions, and with many miraculous results.

The priest at the Church where I attend Mass refuses to bless any image of the Divine Mercy as well, since it was forbidden by the Holy Office under John XXIII, and only through some shady dealings approved under John Paul II (who wanted a Polish Saint and devotion, so arranged for this in Sr Faustina).

Is that really crucial?  I imagine no apparitions besides Fatima spoke of Portugal keeping the faith.  I don't see why unusual language should raise suspicion in and of itself.

I think you've missed the point.

If this idea of Our Lord fawning over a particular soul is such a defensible concept, then we would likely see it elsewhere in locutions/apparitions that the Church has approved. I'd just like to see a similar treatment of a soul. From the apparitions/locutions I am familiar with and have the Church's stamp of approval, I know of no such language.

I'm not looking for an exact phrase, but a pattern. If Our Lord does speak so lovingly when he comes to souls in such mystical experiences, then we should see a pattern. If this incident is unusual, then by the very dint of it being unusual, it is worth asking why. Our Lord did say that we should look for fruit, and if some fruit looks unusual, then we shoudl ask if it's good or bad, and not just assume it's fine.

I got that point too.  I don't see a problem with questioning, I just don't see why we should expect any true apparitions to treat the recipient the same way they would treat anyone else.  If the Divine Mercy apparitions were real, and Christ wanted to show an extraordinary affection to St. Faustina that he didn't want to show to anyone else, that's certainly his prerogative.  Perhaps he knew that that was the best way for her to be able to respond to him.  It certainly would be for me.  If Christ were harsh with me, I wouldn't be able to respond to him in anything other than fear.
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