Question about the Immaculate Conception
#1
Why was the Immaculate Conception necessary? Surely she didn't need this in order to be holy, as there have already been very holy people who were not conceived in such a way (Such as Noah, who was perfect in his generation).
Take the Orthodox as an example: They believe in venerating the Mother of God, they believe in her perpetual virginity, they believe that she had no personal sins. But they don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. So I wonder why it is necessary, even dogmatized, in the Catholic Church.
Thanks!  
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#2
(01-20-2021, 09:17 PM)Southern Stoic Wrote: Why was the Immaculate Conception necessary? Surely she didn't need this in order to be holy, as there have already been very holy people who were not conceived in such a way (Such as Noah, who was perfect in his generation).
Take the Orthodox as an example: They believe in venerating the Mother of God, they believe in her perpetual virginity, they believe that she had no personal sins. But they don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. So I wonder why it is necessary, even dogmatized, in the Catholic Church.
Thanks!  

Uh, it's for the sake of our Lord?  It is only be fitting for him to be incarnate in a spotless vessel, not having even the taint of original sin.
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#3
Well, it was defined as dogma because it is part of Divine revelation.  The necessity of it, if one uses that term with something God is planning (He can do otherwise, if He chooses), has to do with original sin.  The sin of Adam and Eve is passed down through biological descent.  Mary, as a human child born of St. Joachim and St. Anne, would have had the stain of original sin on her if God had not miraculously preserved her from that.  The Son of God, being holy and perfect, wanted to incarnate in a human body through a sinless human woman.  Ergo, the Immaculate Conception.
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#4
(01-20-2021, 09:17 PM)Southern Stoic Wrote: Why was the Immaculate Conception necessary? Surely she didn't need this in order to be holy, as there have already been very holy people who were not conceived in such a way (Such as Noah, who was perfect in his generation).
Take the Orthodox as an example: They believe in venerating the Mother of God, they believe in her perpetual virginity, they believe that she had no personal sins. But they don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. So I wonder why it is necessary, even dogmatized, in the Catholic Church.
Thanks!  

The Orthodox deny that the Immaculate Conception was necessary because they believe that Original Sin doesn't transmit guilt.  Since they've schismed and are no longer protected from error by the Holy Spirit, it's not really useful to look to their theologians for explanations of anything post-1054.
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#5
As most Fishies know I became an Orthodox rather than a Catholic because, as a Thomist, I could not accept the Immaculate Conception. After all, St Thomas had Scholastically proven that it was impossible hadn't he? I had no problem with the concept of Papal Infallibility except the question of how an infallible Pope could define a false doctrine?

I was in the library of the Newman Centre at Wichita State University when I found a little booklet, published probably in the late 50's or early 60's, entitled "Catholics and Orthodox--Can They Unite?" I came upon the chapter on the Immaculate Conception and, to my amazement, I read a quote from one of my great heroes, Georgios Scholarios, the Patriarch Gennadios II. Gennadios was the first Patriarch of Constantinople after The City fell to the infidel jihadists and he was also a prominent Aristotelian-Thomist, one of the few in Orthodoxy, which tends to be Platonist. He had translated the Summa Theologica into Greek and when he reached the section on the Immaculate Conception, he glossed it (I'm paraphrasing), "Thomas was a wise man and indeed may be a Saint (he had been canonised in the West almost 200 years earlier), but on this point he was wrong!" To my amazement, I learned that the doctrine had first been developed in the Orthodox East, but as the West came to view it favourably, the East reacted against it. 

A few minutes later, I walked into the Chapel where our Lord was present in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar, I fell to my knees in front of Him and cried! A few minutes later, I stood up, a Catholic!
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#6
(01-20-2021, 10:39 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(01-20-2021, 09:17 PM)Southern Stoic Wrote: Why was the Immaculate Conception necessary? Surely she didn't need this in order to be holy, as there have already been very holy people who were not conceived in such a way (Such as Noah, who was perfect in his generation).
Take the Orthodox as an example: They believe in venerating the Mother of God, they believe in her perpetual virginity, they believe that she had no personal sins. But they don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. So I wonder why it is necessary, even dogmatized, in the Catholic Church.
Thanks!  

The Orthodox deny that the Immaculate Conception was necessary because they believe that Original Sin doesn't transmit guilt.  Since they've schismed and are no longer protected from error by the Holy Spirit, it's not really useful to look to their theologians for explanations of anything post-1054.
Once this misunderstanding about original sin is resolved, the misunderstanding about the Immaculate Conception will be resolved.
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#7
(01-21-2021, 12:05 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: As most Fishies know I became an Orthodox rather than a Catholic because, as a Thomist, I could not accept the Immaculate Conception. After all, St Thomas had Scholastically proven that it was impossible hadn't he? I had no problem with the concept of Papal Infallibility except the question of how an infallible Pope could define a false doctrine?

I was in the library of the Newman Centre at Wichita State University when I found a little booklet, published probably in the late 50's or early 60's, entitled "Catholics and Orthodox--Can They Unite?" I came upon the chapter on the Immaculate Conception and, to my amazement, I read a quote from one of my great heroes, Georgios Scholarios, the Patriarch Gennadios II. Gennadios was the first Patriarch of Constantinople after The City fell to the infidel jihadists and he was also a prominent Aristotelian-Thomist, one of the few in Orthodoxy, which tends to be Platonist. He had translated the Summa Theologica into Greek and when he reached the section on the Immaculate Conception, he glossed it (I'm paraphrasing), "Thomas was a wise man and indeed may be a Saint (he had been canonised in the West almost 200 years earlier), but on this point he was wrong!" To my amazement, I learned that the doctrine had first been developed in the Orthodox East, but as the West came to view it favourably, the East reacted against it. 

A few minutes later, I walked into the Chapel where our Lord was present in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar, I fell to my knees in front of Him and cried! A few minutes later, I stood up, a Catholic!

"To my amazement, I learned that the doctrine had first been developed in the Orthodox East, but as the West came to view it favourably, the East reacted against it." I couldn't help but laugh when you said this. Reacting against it because the West views it favourably sounds about right.

Your story was amazing. While I find Thomism very interesting myself, I never knew there were Orthodox Thomists.
So, if the Orthodox believed in the Immaculate Conception doesn't that mean they once believed in "inherited guilt"/Original Sin?

Also I should ask this: Did Thomas Aquinas prove the Immaculate Conception was impossible? I assume not or you wouldn't have become Catholic. How did you get around that?
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#8
(01-21-2021, 12:53 AM)benedicite Wrote:
(01-20-2021, 10:39 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(01-20-2021, 09:17 PM)Southern Stoic Wrote: Why was the Immaculate Conception necessary? Surely she didn't need this in order to be holy, as there have already been very holy people who were not conceived in such a way (Such as Noah, who was perfect in his generation).
Take the Orthodox as an example: They believe in venerating the Mother of God, they believe in her perpetual virginity, they believe that she had no personal sins. But they don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. So I wonder why it is necessary, even dogmatized, in the Catholic Church.
Thanks!  

The Orthodox deny that the Immaculate Conception was necessary because they believe that Original Sin doesn't transmit guilt.  Since they've schismed and are no longer protected from error by the Holy Spirit, it's not really useful to look to their theologians for explanations of anything post-1054.
Once this misunderstanding about original sin is resolved, the misunderstanding about the Immaculate Conception will be resolved.

You're right. I should have made this thread about Original Sin. I've heard the Orthodox say on numerous occasions, "If we agreed on Original Sin, we'd agree on the Immaculate Conception."
If we're talking about "original guilt," I do have trouble understanding how I am guilty of the sin of my ancestor.
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#9
(01-21-2021, 02:51 AM)Southern Stoic Wrote:
(01-21-2021, 12:53 AM)benedicite Wrote:
(01-20-2021, 10:39 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(01-20-2021, 09:17 PM)Southern Stoic Wrote: Why was the Immaculate Conception necessary? Surely she didn't need this in order to be holy, as there have already been very holy people who were not conceived in such a way (Such as Noah, who was perfect in his generation).
Take the Orthodox as an example: They believe in venerating the Mother of God, they believe in her perpetual virginity, they believe that she had no personal sins. But they don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. So I wonder why it is necessary, even dogmatized, in the Catholic Church.
Thanks!  

The Orthodox deny that the Immaculate Conception was necessary because they believe that Original Sin doesn't transmit guilt.  Since they've schismed and are no longer protected from error by the Holy Spirit, it's not really useful to look to their theologians for explanations of anything post-1054.
Once this misunderstanding about original sin is resolved, the misunderstanding about the Immaculate Conception will be resolved.

You're right. I should have made this thread about Original Sin. I've heard the Orthodox say on numerous occasions, "If we agreed on Original Sin, we'd agree on the Immaculate Conception."
If we're talking about "original guilt," I do have trouble understanding how I am guilty of the sin of my ancestor.

I really think this issue is a matter of semantics rather than one of substance.
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#10
(01-21-2021, 04:44 AM)benedicite Wrote:
(01-21-2021, 02:51 AM)Southern Stoic Wrote:
(01-21-2021, 12:53 AM)benedicite Wrote:
(01-20-2021, 10:39 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(01-20-2021, 09:17 PM)Southern Stoic Wrote: Why was the Immaculate Conception necessary? Surely she didn't need this in order to be holy, as there have already been very holy people who were not conceived in such a way (Such as Noah, who was perfect in his generation).
Take the Orthodox as an example: They believe in venerating the Mother of God, they believe in her perpetual virginity, they believe that she had no personal sins. But they don't believe in the Immaculate Conception. So I wonder why it is necessary, even dogmatized, in the Catholic Church.
Thanks!  

The Orthodox deny that the Immaculate Conception was necessary because they believe that Original Sin doesn't transmit guilt.  Since they've schismed and are no longer protected from error by the Holy Spirit, it's not really useful to look to their theologians for explanations of anything post-1054.
Once this misunderstanding about original sin is resolved, the misunderstanding about the Immaculate Conception will be resolved.

You're right. I should have made this thread about Original Sin. I've heard the Orthodox say on numerous occasions, "If we agreed on Original Sin, we'd agree on the Immaculate Conception."
If we're talking about "original guilt," I do have trouble understanding how I am guilty of the sin of my ancestor.

I really think this issue is a matter of semantics rather than one of substance.

I'm not sure it's the case.  If Original Sin doesn't transmit guilt, then Baptism (especially infant Baptism) isn't necessary for salvation.  Also, there's no reason why the righteous dead of the Old Covenant would have had to wait in the Bosom of Abraham.  Why couldn't they have gone straight to Heaven?
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