Why the Strong Anti-Western Bias Among Orthodox?
#21
I believe the anti-Western bias among EO stems from a desire on their part not to feel any attraction to Rome, which itself stems from negative experience in that part of the world, and from a sense that their cultural traditions would be lost if they went to Rome. Imagine going from Greek chant or Slavonic, to the NO, or to the much better but still quite different Latin mass whether pre- or post-1960s. Also their services are typically 100-150 minutes in length, and when they are exposed to the mass they feel it is very short. They also feel that Catholicism is based a lot on imagination (St Ignatius exercises, stigmatists) which they consider a flawed basis.
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#22
(01-29-2021, 02:25 PM)Evangelium Wrote: If you want to read a strong Orthodox defense of the West, read Russia and the Universal Church by Vladimir Soloviev.

I've had this on my Drive for a while. And after reading a good portion of the Introduction, I'm reeling at how this man is even a Russian Orthodox! He really seemed to recognize the importance of the papacy in the West and its centrality to Christian orthodoxy.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#23
(01-29-2021, 01:30 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: I am a frequent listener to Michael Lofton's Reason and Theology podcast. Listening has sparked a recent interest in Eastern Christianity (not just exclusively Byzantine). 

I checked out some books on the topic, most of which are by Orthodox Christians. 

One thing that I have noticed is that, at least in some authors, there is a very strong anti-Western sentiment and a tendency to blame the West for every evil or wrong. (Alexander Schmeman was a good example of this that I recently encountered.) The accusations tend to be that the west is overly Rationalistic, that the West has a defective theology, that the West has allowed xyz innovation to corrupt their spirituality.

As far as I am aware, I haven't noticed a similar attitude coming from Catholics towards to the Orthodox. Generally, the Catholics seem to be very conciliatory towards the Orthodox churches, and this attitude seems to be the historical one (the Council of Lyon 1274 and the Council of Florence 1439 being attempts to heal the schism, which more or less succeeded until the Eastern Bishops returned to their dioceses.)

I haven't read too deeply into the subjects and am trying to get my bearings.

Happy to see Michael's show is growing in popularity. Michael is my friend and I'm a contributor. I've gotten a few guests on the show for him. I was the one who arranged Fr. Moody to come on the show, for example.
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#24
(01-29-2021, 11:18 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(01-29-2021, 02:25 PM)Evangelium Wrote: If you want to read a strong Orthodox defense of the West, read Russia and the Universal Church by Vladimir Soloviev.

I've had this on my Drive for a while. And after reading a good portion of the Introduction, I'm reeling at how this man is even a Russian Orthodox! He really seemed to recognize the importance of the papacy in the West and its centrality to Christian orthodoxy.
Soloviev is about as Orthodox as Teliard de Chardin is Catholic.
He was an illuminist philosopher who held gnostic/pseudo-pagan views about Sophia as an "Eternal Feminine" and man as evolving toward a "universal humanity".

It's bizarre that Catholic apologists have latched onto him as a resource. This would be like Orthodox apologists trying to use Chardin as a resource if Chardin had happened
to hold some seemingly pro-Orthodox ecclesiological ideas amidst his heresies.
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#25
(02-05-2021, 12:19 PM)PorphyriosK Wrote:
(01-29-2021, 11:18 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(01-29-2021, 02:25 PM)Evangelium Wrote: If you want to read a strong Orthodox defense of the West, read Russia and the Universal Church by Vladimir Soloviev.

I've had this on my Drive for a while. And after reading a good portion of the Introduction, I'm reeling at how this man is even a Russian Orthodox! He really seemed to recognize the importance of the papacy in the West and its centrality to Christian orthodoxy.
Soloviev is about as Orthodox as Teliard de Chardin is Catholic.
He was an illuminist philosopher who held gnostic/pseudo-pagan views about Sophia as an "Eternal Feminine" and man as evolving toward a "universal humanity".

It's bizarre that Catholic apologists have latched onto him as a resource. This would be like Orthodox apologists trying to use Chardin as a resource if Chardin had happened
to hold some seemingly pro-Orthodox ecclesiological ideas amidst his heresies.

Considering I'm not an Orthodox, that doesn't particularly phase me. His unorthodoxy to the Orthodox has no particular bearing on my opinion of him. I just found it interesting that he was a supporter of the papacy.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#26
I am more concerned with the substance of Soloviev's arguments, like his story of St. Nicholas and Cassian.
The Gospel is traditional.
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#27
(02-05-2021, 02:16 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(02-05-2021, 12:19 PM)PorphyriosK Wrote:
(01-29-2021, 11:18 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(01-29-2021, 02:25 PM)Evangelium Wrote: If you want to read a strong Orthodox defense of the West, read Russia and the Universal Church by Vladimir Soloviev.

I've had this on my Drive for a while. And after reading a good portion of the Introduction, I'm reeling at how this man is even a Russian Orthodox! He really seemed to recognize the importance of the papacy in the West and its centrality to Christian orthodoxy.
Soloviev is about as Orthodox as Teliard de Chardin is Catholic.
He was an illuminist philosopher who held gnostic/pseudo-pagan views about Sophia as an "Eternal Feminine" and man as evolving toward a "universal humanity".

It's bizarre that Catholic apologists have latched onto him as a resource. This would be like Orthodox apologists trying to use Chardin as a resource if Chardin had happened
to hold some seemingly pro-Orthodox ecclesiological ideas amidst his heresies.

Considering I'm not an Orthodox, that doesn't particularly phase me. His unorthodoxy to the Orthodox has no particular bearing on my opinion of him. I just found it interesting that he was a supporter of the papacy.
Understood. I was just pointing out that his use as a popular reference among Catholic apologists vs. Orthodoxy ("look, an Orthodox who agreed with the papacy!") is not impressive given that he held many heretical beliefs.
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#28
(02-05-2021, 02:36 PM)PorphyriosK Wrote:
(02-05-2021, 02:16 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(02-05-2021, 12:19 PM)PorphyriosK Wrote:
(01-29-2021, 11:18 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(01-29-2021, 02:25 PM)Evangelium Wrote: If you want to read a strong Orthodox defense of the West, read Russia and the Universal Church by Vladimir Soloviev.

I've had this on my Drive for a while. And after reading a good portion of the Introduction, I'm reeling at how this man is even a Russian Orthodox! He really seemed to recognize the importance of the papacy in the West and its centrality to Christian orthodoxy.
Soloviev is about as Orthodox as Teliard de Chardin is Catholic.
He was an illuminist philosopher who held gnostic/pseudo-pagan views about Sophia as an "Eternal Feminine" and man as evolving toward a "universal humanity".

It's bizarre that Catholic apologists have latched onto him as a resource. This would be like Orthodox apologists trying to use Chardin as a resource if Chardin had happened
to hold some seemingly pro-Orthodox ecclesiological ideas amidst his heresies.

Considering I'm not an Orthodox, that doesn't particularly phase me. His unorthodoxy to the Orthodox has no particular bearing on my opinion of him. I just found it interesting that he was a supporter of the papacy.
Understood. I was just pointing out that his use as a popular reference among Catholic apologists vs. Orthodoxy ("look, an Orthodox who agreed with the papacy!") is not impressive given that he held many heretical beliefs.

Nah, I didn't think it was any sort of ammunition against Orthos. Especially since the rest of the book appears to be an argument for Russia being the next Rome, which was obviously wrong given the Bolsheviks about 15 years after Soloviev's death.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#29
(01-29-2021, 01:30 PM)Justin Tertius Wrote: I am a frequent listener to Michael Lofton's Reason and Theology podcast. Listening has sparked a recent interest in Eastern Christianity (not just exclusively Byzantine). 

I checked out some books on the topic, most of which are by Orthodox Christians. 

One thing that I have noticed is that, at least in some authors, there is a very strong anti-Western sentiment and a tendency to blame the West for every evil or wrong. (Alexander Schmeman was a good example of this that I recently encountered.) The accusations tend to be that the west is overly Rationalistic, that the West has a defective theology, that the West has allowed xyz innovation to corrupt their spirituality.

As far as I am aware, I haven't noticed a similar attitude coming from Catholics towards to the Orthodox. Generally, the Catholics seem to be very conciliatory towards the Orthodox churches, and this attitude seems to be the historical one (the Council of Lyon 1274 and the Council of Florence 1439 being attempts to heal the schism, which more or less succeeded until the Eastern Bishops returned to their dioceses.)

I haven't read too deeply into the subjects and am trying to get my bearings.
I came to Catholicism by way of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church.  I also spent a number of years in the Orthodox Church (enough material there for a whopper of a book!!), and for reasons I won't go into here, am now back in the Catholic Church, albeit attending my local R.C. parish.

You might be interested to read His Broken Body: Understanding and Healing the Schism between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches.  It was written by an Orthodox priest and so has an Orthodox bias.  If you keep that in mind while reading it, you might find it very illuminating.  https://books.google.com/books/about/His...KOUb6OcG4C
“But all will be well, and all will be well, and every kind of thing will be well.” ~Julian of Norwich

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug."~Mark Knopfler (?)

"No matter who you are somebody thinks you're a heretic. Wear it like a badge of honor........... :LOL:"~Silouan
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#30
(02-05-2021, 02:16 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(02-05-2021, 12:19 PM)PorphyriosK Wrote:
(01-29-2021, 11:18 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(01-29-2021, 02:25 PM)Evangelium Wrote: If you want to read a strong Orthodox defense of the West, read Russia and the Universal Church by Vladimir Soloviev.

I've had this on my Drive for a while. And after reading a good portion of the Introduction, I'm reeling at how this man is even a Russian Orthodox! He really seemed to recognize the importance of the papacy in the West and its centrality to Christian orthodoxy.
Soloviev is about as Orthodox as Teliard de Chardin is Catholic.
He was an illuminist philosopher who held gnostic/pseudo-pagan views about Sophia as an "Eternal Feminine" and man as evolving toward a "universal humanity".

It's bizarre that Catholic apologists have latched onto him as a resource. This would be like Orthodox apologists trying to use Chardin as a resource if Chardin had happened
to hold some seemingly pro-Orthodox ecclesiological ideas amidst his heresies.

Considering I'm not an Orthodox, that doesn't particularly phase me. His unorthodoxy to the Orthodox has no particular bearing on my opinion of him. I just found it interesting that he was a supporter of the papacy.

As an Orthodox Christian I have found Soloviev to be a comfort amidst the implacable desert of Anti-Occidentalism the Orthodox tend to define themselves by. 

Yes, he may have held heretical views in terms of his Sofianism (which goes hand in hand with his Kabbalist and Gnostic studies) but he was right on the money when it came to the Papacy. Do we Orthodox want to throw out St. Gregory of Nazianzen because he supported Apocatastasis, or St. Joseph of Volokhomansk because he supported the Posessors unto the persecution of St Nilus and the Non-Posessors?  Many Orthotrads want to throw out St. Augustine for various (contrived) reasons, but he is a venerable and holy Church Father whose theology has illumined the Universal Church East and West. I am very wary of those who are quick to throw out people because of their flaws (real or imagined) and who will not confront their ideas. At the end of the day I fear many Orthotrads will be the sole arbiters of their own personal Orthodoxy, which is an inverted papacy; rather than submit to the Holy See and the man who God has placed as head of His Church they will become little popes themselves, which is exactly what Protestantism has become.
"Orthodoxy is not so much a matter of the head. It is something living, and it's of the heart." --Bl. Seraphim of Platina

"Beauty will save the world." --Fyodor Dostoevsky

"You shall know the truth, and it will make you odd." --Flannery O'Connor
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