Why the Strong Anti-Western Bias Among Orthodox?
#71
(03-21-2021, 06:32 PM)PorphyriosK Wrote: Pure sophistry. The reasoning behind Catholic annulments put into doubt the validity of all marriages. At any time, one party can suddenly claim it never happened, using lawyering and legalisms to justify their desired outcome. It's literally the exact same result as divorce/remarriage, just with a change of language to justify it.

In the Catholic Church, we view marriage as indissoluble because Jesus said it's indissoluble, and we have tribunals that are charged with determining whether a sacramental marriage ever occurred if there is reason to believe that it didn't.

In the Eastern Orthodox gauntlet of schismatic "Churches", you throw your hands up, dispense with indissolubility (and rules in general) because it's complicated, and punt: "Ask your pastor, and he'll just make something up on the spot." It's your answer to divorce, contraception, and anything that's even remotely complicated.
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#72
(03-20-2021, 12:39 AM)AlNg777 Wrote:
(03-18-2021, 10:03 AM)XavierSem Wrote: Regarding no remarriage after divorce, it was taught in the Council of Florence. Separation, sometimes, but no remarriage: 
So it is wrong for the Orthodox Church to allow remarriage for serious reasons, but it is OK for the Roman Catholic church to allow remarriage for the flimsiest of reasons which were not allowed before 1950?

Well AlNg777, the Council of Florence finished roughly 500 years before 1950. Why did the Eastern Orthodox not completely accept its decrees then?

As the 1907 Catholic Encyclopedia puts it, "The Decree of Florence made every possible concession to their feelings. There is no real reason why they should not sign that Decree now." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm Catholics must profess, as a matter of Faith, that holy matrimony is indissoluble. Our Lord's Word that whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery shows that the bond of matrimony remains indissolubly.

There have been some abuses in recent times, everyone here knows that; that's why we're traditional Catholics here on this forum, because we disagree with those abuses too, but that has nothing to do with the traditional doctrine of the indissolubility of Christian marriages and the possibility of annulment.

Let's take the Gospels and the Epistles of St. Paul to explain. Also some Scriptures right from Genesis: "Scripture

Gen. 2:20-24 – we see that, from the beginning, husband and wife are joined together by God and become one body. A body cannot be dismembered and still live.

Mal. 2:16 – God says “I hate divorce.” These are strong words from our Lord. Divorce and remarriage violates the sacred marital covenant between a husband and a wife that has been ordained by God.

Matt. 19:6 – Jesus makes it clear that it is God who joins the husband and wife together, according to His will. What God joins together cannot be dissolved because God’s will is perfect and eternal.

Matt. 19:9; Mark 10:11-12; Luke 16:18 – Jesus says that whoever divorces and remarries another commits adultery. This is an offense against the natural law.

Rom. 7:2-3 – again, Paul reiterates Jesus’ teaching that sacramental marriage followed by a divorce and remarriage is adultery. He who commits adultery destroys himself. (Prov. 6:23). Many Protestant denominations have rejected this teaching of Jesus and His Church.

1 Cor. 7:10-11 – once again, Paul gives Christ’s teaching that married couples cannot divorce and remarry. This violates God’s divine plan for the husband and wife.

Matt. 5:31-32 – the Lord permits divorce only for “porneia.” This Greek word generally means unlawful sexual intercourse due to either blood relations (also called incest) or nonsacramental unions. The Lord does not permit divorce for “moicheia” (adultery). It is also important to note that in these cases, a marriage never existed in the first place, so the Lord is not actually permitting divorce, but a dissolution of the unlawful union." https://www.scripturecatholic.com/divorc...emarriage/

Cardinal Burke and others wrote an excellent recent scholarly work on the subject: "Remaining in the Truth of Christ: Marriage and Communion in the Catholic Church" that shows the practice in the Byzantine East toward accepting remarriage began only very late and under pressure from Emperors.

Since there is no such pressure anymore, it would be good if our Orthodox Christian separated brethren accepted the Church's teaching on Matrimony.

God Bless.
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your Most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father and Priests ..."

https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/
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#73
(03-22-2021, 11:18 PM)XavierSem Wrote:
(03-20-2021, 12:39 AM)AlNg777 Wrote:
(03-18-2021, 10:03 AM)XavierSem Wrote: Regarding no remarriage after divorce, it was taught in the Council of Florence. Separation, sometimes, but no remarriage: 
So it is wrong for the Orthodox Church to allow remarriage for serious reasons, but it is OK for the Roman Catholic church to allow remarriage for the flimsiest of reasons which were not allowed before 1950?

Well AlNg777, the Council of Florence finished roughly 500 years before 1950. Why did the Eastern Orthodox not completely accept its decrees then?

As the 1907 Catholic Encyclopedia puts it, "The Decree of Florence made every possible concession to their feelings. There is no real reason why they should not sign that Decree now." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm Catholics must profess, as a matter of Faith, that holy matrimony is indissoluble. Our Lord's Word that whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery shows that the bond of matrimony remains indissolubly.

There have been some abuses in recent times, everyone here knows that; that's why we're traditional Catholics here on this forum, because we disagree with those abuses too, but that has nothing to do with the traditional doctrine of the indissolubility of Christian marriages and the possibility of annulment.

Let's take the Gospels and the Epistles of St. Paul to explain. Also some Scriptures right from Genesis: "Scripture

Gen. 2:20-24 – we see that, from the beginning, husband and wife are joined together by God and become one body. A body cannot be dismembered and still live.

Mal. 2:16 – God says “I hate divorce.” These are strong words from our Lord. Divorce and remarriage violates the sacred marital covenant between a husband and a wife that has been ordained by God.

Matt. 19:6 – Jesus makes it clear that it is God who joins the husband and wife together, according to His will. What God joins together cannot be dissolved because God’s will is perfect and eternal.

Matt. 19:9; Mark 10:11-12; Luke 16:18 – Jesus says that whoever divorces and remarries another commits adultery. This is an offense against the natural law.

Rom. 7:2-3 – again, Paul reiterates Jesus’ teaching that sacramental marriage followed by a divorce and remarriage is adultery. He who commits adultery destroys himself. (Prov. 6:23). Many Protestant denominations have rejected this teaching of Jesus and His Church.

1 Cor. 7:10-11 – once again, Paul gives Christ’s teaching that married couples cannot divorce and remarry. This violates God’s divine plan for the husband and wife.

Matt. 5:31-32 – the Lord permits divorce only for “porneia.” This Greek word generally means unlawful sexual intercourse due to either blood relations (also called incest) or nonsacramental unions. The Lord does not permit divorce for “moicheia” (adultery). It is also important to note that in these cases, a marriage never existed in the first place, so the Lord is not actually permitting divorce, but a dissolution of the unlawful union." https://www.scripturecatholic.com/divorc...emarriage/

Cardinal Burke and others wrote an excellent recent scholarly work on the subject: "Remaining in the Truth of Christ: Marriage and Communion in the Catholic Church" that shows the practice in the Byzantine East toward accepting remarriage began only very late and under pressure from Emperors.

Since there is no such pressure anymore, it would be good if our Orthodox Christian separated brethren accepted the Church's teaching on Matrimony.

God Bless.
Xavier, your points have been refuted over and over for years now, yet you keep raising them as if no one has ever answered you. Florence was only accepted by the Greek faction under severe political pressure and military duress, not with the freedom of conscience necessary for a true Council. 

Your claims about Orthodox marriage/divorce have also been debunked. Read the canons of the Councils. The early West also had canons regarding conditions for remarriage, which I've posted for you several times, that you apparently refuse to read.
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#74
(03-21-2021, 07:02 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(03-21-2021, 06:32 PM)PorphyriosK Wrote: Pure sophistry. The reasoning behind Catholic annulments put into doubt the validity of all marriages. At any time, one party can suddenly claim it never happened, using lawyering and legalisms to justify their desired outcome. It's literally the exact same result as divorce/remarriage, just with a change of language to justify it.

In the Catholic Church, we view marriage as indissoluble because Jesus said it's indissoluble, and we have tribunals that are charged with determining whether a sacramental marriage ever occurred if there is reason to believe that it didn't.

In the Eastern Orthodox gauntlet of schismatic "Churches", you throw your hands up, dispense with indissolubility (and rules in general) because it's complicated, and punt:  "Ask your pastor, and he'll just make something up on the spot."  It's your answer to divorce, contraception, and anything that's even remotely complicated.
Christ also gave an exception to that clause, and the early canons of the Church dealt with these issues surrounding marriage/divorce. The "punting" is on your behalf, thinking bravado can substitute for your complete lack of argument and ignorance of actual history.

The Catholic annulment factories are just a means to the achieve the same end without having to admit any sin. You are now free to remarry with a completely clean conscience because a committee of laymen determined that God never joined you together in the first place. Wow, how convenient. It's a (seemingly) easy resolution to a messy situation.
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#75
(03-23-2021, 10:40 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote: The Catholic annulment factories are just a means to the achieve the same end without having to admit any sin. You are now free to remarry with a completely clean conscience because a committee of laymen determined that God never joined you together in the first place. Wow, how convenient. It's a (seemingly) easy resolution to a messy situation.

We know this isn't true. How?

If the Catholic Church allowed remarriage, then the orthodox churches would suddenly decide that it's a bad idea.
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#76
(03-23-2021, 11:40 AM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(03-23-2021, 10:40 AM)PorphyriosK Wrote: The Catholic annulment factories are just a means to the achieve the same end without having to admit any sin. You are now free to remarry with a completely clean conscience because a committee of laymen determined that God never joined you together in the first place. Wow, how convenient. It's a (seemingly) easy resolution to a messy situation.

We know this isn't true.  How?

If the Catholic Church allowed remarriage, then the orthodox churches would suddenly decide that it's a bad idea.
Ha ha.
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#77
The Church's stance on what is capture by divorce and annulment has changed significantly. Henry VIII would have been granted a speedy annulment under current Church standards. Instead the views of his time precipitated a schism.

Its seems there is as much animosity towards the Orthodoxy as the Orthodoxy have towards the Church. The Pope's outreach to the Orthodoxy is laudable.
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#78
(03-24-2021, 06:48 AM)DNJC.org Wrote: Its seems there is as much animosity towards the Orthodoxy as the Orthodoxy have towards the Church.  

Maybe in the grand scheme but in my personal experience this is not the case.  I am constantly and viscously attacked online whenever I make a point using what is obvious Catholic Church teaching. The Orthodox are no different in this regard than the Protestants, many times using the same lies as talking points.  The attacks are always unprovoked with no mention of heresy or schism, just Church teaching.  I never see it go the other way except in self defense.  Even when I try to find common ground in an apostolic, eucharistic sense of being on the same team it does not help and often makes it worse.
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#79
(03-24-2021, 07:20 PM)Bushum Wrote:
(03-24-2021, 06:48 AM)DNJC.org Wrote: Its seems there is as much animosity towards the Orthodoxy as the Orthodoxy have towards the Church.  

Maybe in the grand scheme but in my personal experience this is not the case.  I am constantly and viscously attacked online whenever I make a point using what is obvious Catholic Church teaching. The Orthodox are no different in this regard than the Protestants, many times using the same lies as talking points.  The attacks are always unprovoked with no mention of heresy or schism, just Church teaching.  I never see it go the other way except in self defense.  Even when I try to find common ground in an apostolic, eucharistic sense of being on the same team it does not help and often makes it worse.

Of course.  As a Catholic I've experienced that as well. 

I see the Orthodox as a natural ally in what we are facing in society today.  I find the steps taken by Pope Francis including the sharing of relics to be positive and hope that it will lead to stronger relations.  Debate over the leavening of bread can wait for another day.  

That said, there are members of this forum who've waxed wistfully about Catholic-state sponsored execution of all heretics including Orthodox and protestants.
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#80
Relations may improve, but the Orthodox are never going to agree to reunion with Rome.
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