Why the Strong Anti-Western Bias Among Orthodox?
#51
Quote:PorphyriosK:
I'm sorry to hear that. But if you are fleeing Orthodoxy for Rome to escape some heretical tendencies you observed, I'm afraid you'll be hugely disappointed to find modern Roman Catholicism is far more a mess of heretical gobbledygook than what you left behind. A small minority of Traditionalists (far smaller than a fraction of the Orthodox Church) do try to maintain what was taught at Trent. The rest of Roman Catholicism is just a post-modernist socio-political organization and its bishop is just a leftist secular politician wearing a white cassock. The Trad Catholics even agree with that much.


I am fleeing Orthodoxy despite the current crisis in the Catholic Church and because something within my heart says that despite her Babylonian Captivity since Vatican II she is the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. On this one I am following my heart and balancing it with my head and many prayers. 


Quote:[b]XavierSem:[/b]
Unfortunately, these divisions have weakened Christendom, and led to the rise of liberalism and secularism. More urgent than ever is the call for separated Christians to quickly return to full communion with the Successor of Peter, so all Christians can be one with the Church.


I love both Patriarch Bartholomew and Patriarch Kirill and pray for them. Both are on good terms with Pope Francis. The way forward is for a Joint Council that will re-unite the Churches. If Orthodox accept the Tradition of Papal Primacy, everything else will be much easier. But even if they do not, and want to discuss it from Scripture and Tradition only, as was done at Lyons II and Florence also, the Catholic Church can easily show Her dogmatic Tradition on all the disputed points, Filioque etc, to be found in both Greek and Latin Fathers.

I pray for Catholic-Orthodox Unity as it would greatly strengthen Global Christendom and greatly advance the cause of World Evangelism.


 Amen.
"Orthodoxy is not so much a matter of the head. It is something living, and it's of the heart." --Bl. Seraphim of Platina

"Beauty will save the world." --Fyodor Dostoevsky

"You shall know the truth, and it will make you odd." --Flannery O'Connor
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#52
(02-16-2021, 03:23 PM)J Michael Wrote: I came to Catholicism by way of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church.  I also spent a number of years in the Orthodox Church (enough material there for a whopper of a book!!), and for reasons I won't go into here, am now back in the Catholic Church, albeit attending my local R.C. parish.
You might be interested to read His Broken Body: Understanding and Healing the Schism between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches.  It was written by an Orthodox priest and so has an Orthodox bias.  If you keep that in mind while reading it, you might find it very illuminating.  https://books.google.com/books/about/His...KOUb6OcG4C

Thanks for the recommendation Michael. I'll have to add that one to the list.
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
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#53
I love Orthodox Christians. Their love for our Mother Mary, for the Holy Eucharist, for the Priesthood, for the spiritual life, for asceticism and for fasting and penance etc are all very good and edifying. They are like 99% Catholic and it just requires abandoning a few erroneous opinions that have cropped up in the course of time in order to become fully Catholic again. I firmly believe and hope that this ancient Schism started by patriarch Photius in the 9th century that has endured over a millenium will be healed in our lifetime, by the Grace of God.

They venerate icons, they pray for the departed, they love the Church Fathers, and some Orthodox Christians even venerate recent Catholic Saints. The Great Saints of the Catholic Church show that Grace has not by any means left the Catholic Church. I believe Grace is present and operates even in the Orthodox Church, especially among those in good faith, but that Grace is given to slowly lead them home to Rome. There have been much improved relationships between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches in recent times especially.

It's just that our leaving the Roman Catholic Church for an ancient schism started by patriarchs Photius and Caerularius is not legitimate. St. Robert Bellarmine fully answers the doctrinal objections raised by the Greek Church here: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apol...ession.htm He proves the Filioque Dogma from 15 Greek Fathers, 15 Latin Fathers, and 5 Ecumenical Councils. Let us all offer our prayers for them, that they may quickly come home again soon.
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your Most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father and Priests ..."

https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/
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#54
And they allow contraception and up to three marriages.
"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
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#55
Yes, clear errors. Before 1930, all Christian denominations considered Contraception, or "onanism", the sin of Onan mentioned in Gen 38, to be gravely sinful. Today, only the Catholic Church, as Pope Pius XI said in Casti Cannubii and Pope Paul VI in Humanae Vitae, firmly holds to this uninterrupted Tradition. Another clear indicator the Catholic Church is the True Church of Christ.

May Jesus Christ Our Lord quickly re-unite all who profess faith in Him with His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Amen.
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your Most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father and Priests ..."

https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/
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#56
(02-25-2021, 12:31 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: And they allow contraception and up to three marriages.
Nope, 100% wrong on contraception.

“The official position of the Greek Orthodox Church was set forth in an encyclical written in 1937, which recommended abstinence as the only legal method of avoiding conception. The position of the Christian Orthodox Church on abortion and contraception is fundamentally identical to that of the Roman Catholic Church.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12279632/




Regarding divorce and remarriage:
The East strongly condemns divorce and will only allow it as a last resort if the relationship is beyond repair.  It has only allowed remarriage in certain circumstances, going back long before the Schism, so apparently it was never an issue between the churches.  In fact, the ancient West seemed to deal with these issues in a similar manner as can be seen in these articles:

https://shamelessorthodoxy.com/2016/09/1...en-history
https://shamelessorthodoxy.com/2017/05/0...-addendum/
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#57
It is you who are wrong about contraception.  A quote about the Greek Orthodox Church's statement in 1937 does not accurately reflect the current practice in the Orthodox Church.

Read this:  https://orthodoxwiki.org/Birth_Control_a...traception

The Orthodox hold that contraception is allowed with the permission of one's "spiritual father."

Regarding that video, the best you can say is that there is a difference of opinion on the part of some in the Orthodox Church.

So it is disingenuous for you to say that I am "100% wrong."
"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
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#58
Ahem!

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/...ut-condoms


Not that I'm really trying to support Eastern Orthodoxy, but I think this rush to condemn EO and say they support contraception willy nilly...it sounds more like contraception is held on a case-by-case basis just like Pope Benedict was calling for in Africa with dealing with AIDS. A way of trying to lead someone back to morality.

Also reading that link you sent it looks like the reasons they reject absolute condemnation of contraception is something that is difficult to refute in my opinion, since I am a big fan of St John Chrysostom.

Also that link points to St Augustine (my patron saint) as being stoic and against contraception. When I read the reference Chapter XVIII On the Morals of the Manicheans, St Augustine isn't railing against contraception itself as much as he's railing against the fact that the Manicheans are deliberately frustrating there ever being children period. There is a difference (not condoning it) between a married couple that practices contraception but has children and a marriage that is wholly sterile because the group of people in question view the body as evil and thus wish to prevent a soul from ever inhabiting it.

Again not condoning it, but simply trying to get at the truth of the matter.
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#59
This article on Patheos about the subject has some interesting points. Apparently, Patriarch Athenagoras agreed with Pope Paul VI's HV in 1968: "We assure you that we remain close to you, above all in these recent days when you have taken the good step of publishing the encyclical Humanae Vitae. We are in total agreement with you, and wish you all God’s help to continue your mission in the world."

From: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstr...omise.html

But sadly, as also mentioned in the article, Orthodox Bishop Kallistos Ware's views on the subject seemed to change every passing decade.

"In the first edition, first printing (1963) of The Orthodox Church, Met. Kallistos Ware states (page 302):

Artificial methods of birth control are forbidden in the Orthodox Church."

The revised 1984 version of The Orthodox Church, however (New York: Penguin Books, page 302), states (emphasis added):

The use of contraceptives and other devices for birth control is on the whole strongly discouraged in the Orthodox Church. Some bishops and theologians altogether condemn the employment of such methods. Others, however, have recently begun to adopt a less strict position, and urge that the question is best left to the discretion of each individual couple, in consultation with the spiritual father.

The revised 1993 version of The Orthodox Church reveals even further change in Orthodox teaching and practice, away from previously universal Christian tradition (page 296; emphasis added):

Concerning contraceptives and other forms of birth control, differing opinions exist within the Orthodox Church. In the past birth control was in general strongly condemned, but today a less strict view is coming to prevail, not only in the west but in traditional Orthodox countries. Many Orthodox theologians and spiritual fathers consider that the responsible use of contraception within marriage is not in itself sinful. In their view, the question of how many children a couple should have, and at what intervals, is best decided by the partners themselves, according to the guidance of their own consciences."

Still, some other Orthodox Bishops and Theologians have expressed agreement with and appreciation for the position of the Papacy and of the Catholic Church. 

"Metropolitan Chrysostom of Athens: “While I am by no means a lover of the papacy, I feel the need to commend the papal encyclical.” (G. E. M. Anscombe, “Contraception and Chastity” in Janet Smith, ed., Why Humanae Vitae Was Right: A Reader; San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1993; 132)

Romanian Orthodox priest, Father Virgil Gheorghiu: “We Christians know that it is not the mouth of the pope that has spoken in forbidding the use of contraceptives. It is God who has spoken through the mouth of the pope—and through the mouth of the ecumenical patriarch.” (Ekklisia, November 1/15 1968, quoted in Edgecumbe, 305)

Dr. C. T. Eapen, Theologian of the Syrian Orthodox Church of South India: “The pope deserves the support of all Christians for the stern stand he took on the birth control issue in his recent encyclical on the subject, in spite of the opposition both within and without the Roman Catholic Church. Only one could wish that the Lambeth Conference also could have found its way to support the pope’s lead. We are sure that the Eastern Orthodox Churches will give all moral support to the position taken by the pope.” (La Figaro Littéraire, August 19, 1968, quoted in Edgecumbe, 305)

It seems to be an undecided or unresolved question yet within the Orthodox Church, or at least there is not universal agreement about it.

Catholic and Orthodox Bishops and Theologians, engaging in dialogue based on Scripture and Tradition, should try to come to consensus.

Patristic Tradition is clear. There are quotes in the article from Saints Augustine, Chrysostom, Hippolytus and Caesarius among others.
"My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your Most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Together with my life, I place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the sufferings of my entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father and Priests ..."

https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/
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#60
(02-25-2021, 12:31 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: And they allow contraception and up to three marriages.
1. Contraception. Are Roman Catholics moving to change the teaching on this? Please see:

http://magister.blogautore.espresso.repu...s-funeral/
According to Msgr. Philippe Bordeyne, current rector of the Institut Catholique of Paris, who has been appointed  dean of the Pontifical John Paul II Institute" 
“The encyclical ‘Humanae vitae’ teaches that natural methods of controlling fertility are the only legitimate ones. However, it must be recognized that the distance between the practice of the faithful and the teaching of the magisterium has grown even wider. Is it simple deafness to the calls of the Spirit or is it the fruit of a work of discernment and responsibility in Christian couples subjected to the pressure of new ways of life? The human sciences and the experience of couples teach us that the relationships between desire and pleasure are complex, eminently personal, and therefore variable according to the couples, and evolve over time and within the couple. Faced with the imperative moral duty to fight against the temptations of abortion, divorce, and the lack of generosity in the face of procreation, it would be reasonable to leave the discernment on birth control methods to the wisdom of couples, placing the emphasis on a moral and spiritual education that would make it possible to fight more effectively against temptations in a context that is often hostile to Christian anthropology.

“In this perspective, the Church could admit a plurality of paths for responding to the general call to maintain the openness of sexuality to transcendence and to the gift of life. […] The way of natural methods that involves continence and chastity could be recommended as an evangelical counsel, practiced by Christian couples or not, that requires self-control in periodic abstinence. The other way whose moral legitimacy could be admitted, with the choice entrusted to the wisdom of the spouses, would consist in using non-abortive methods of contraception. If the spouses decide to introduce this medicine into the intimacy of their sex life, they would be encouraged to double their mutual love."

2. Divorce. At the Council of Florence did Rome require that the Orthodox renounce their position on divorce or did Rome agree to the reunion without insisting on a change from the Orthodox?
Further suppose that Rome recognized that the Orthodox teaching on divorce is the Eastern equivalent of the Roman teaching on annulment? When a Catholic applies for a marriage annulment, she must first obtain a civil divorce, even before the tribunal looks at the case. And Cardinal Kasper has referred to the possibility that a Catholic annulment can be a divorce in a dishonest way.
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