Confused about fire of Purgatory
#11
I'm quoting St Catherine
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#12
These issues are incredibly speculative at times so I generally let smarter people discuss them.

As a Greek Catholic though, we understand that Our God is a consuming fire. All go through this fire. It either purifies them of their sins or it scorches their soul perpetually for unholiness cannot stand the presence of holiness. The former is purgative and is the final part of deification, the latter is Hell.
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#13
God is a billion suns going supernova every second
a torrent of life and fire
you don't need to stand in the center of the explosion
God doesn't beat you or torture you for kicks
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#14
(03-16-2021, 09:15 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(03-16-2021, 08:49 PM)Jerry Towns Wrote:
(03-16-2021, 08:45 PM)Jerry Towns Wrote: I'm surprised, that the Father of the Gospels who would give you a drink of water if you asked
would set you on fire

Purgatory is not the antechamber of hell
it is the waiting room to heaven

Benign descriptions of purgatory are evil.

"Benign" how? Nobody should say it's a place you WANT to go or are aiming for because it's keeping you from the beatific vision but since it's purifying you it can't really be seen as an evil place, right?
With no king to rule me I owe my fealty only to God.
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#15
(03-16-2021, 01:33 PM)FultonFan Wrote:
(03-16-2021, 10:08 AM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(03-16-2021, 12:40 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(03-15-2021, 10:53 PM)adoro.te.devote Wrote: Various Saints say that the lower regions of Purgatory have the same fire as hell, which makes sense because Purgatory and Limbo are technically in hell, though not in the hell of the damned. 

Purgatory is not in Hell.

Limbo is.

The "fires of Purgatory" are only analogous to those of Hell, but are essentially different, since unlike those of Hell, they are not purifying.

The fires of Hell are purifying?
I think we’re witnessing the rare instance of a grammatical error and/or typo from MM.

It happens pretty often. Yes, I meant the fires of purgatory are purifying and those of Hell are not. Thus they are formally different things. I will edit the original post to correct.
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#16
(03-16-2021, 04:53 AM)adoro.te.devote Wrote:
(03-16-2021, 12:40 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(03-15-2021, 10:53 PM)adoro.te.devote Wrote: Various Saints say that the lower regions of Purgatory have the same fire as hell, which makes sense because Purgatory and Limbo are technically in hell, though not in the hell of the damned. 

Purgatory is not in Hell.

Limbo is.

The "fires of Purgatory" are only analogous to those of Hell, but are essentially different, since unlike those of Hell, they are not purifying.

Regarding the first point, Catholic Encyclopedia seems to suggest that Purgatory is part of hell? (But not the hell of the damned, which is typically how we use that word)

"[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Hell (infernus) in theological usage is a place of punishment after death. Theologians distinguish four meanings of the term hell:[/color]
  • hell in the strict sense, or the place of punishment for the damned, be they demons or men;

  • the limbo of infants (limbus parvulorum), where those who die in original sin alone, and without personal mortal sin, are confined and undergo some kind of punishment;

  • the limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum), in which the souls of the just who died before Christ awaited their admission to heaven; for in the meantime heaven was closed against them in punishment for the sin of Adam;

  • purgatory, where the just, who die in venial sin or who still owe a debt of temporal punishment for sin, are cleansed by suffering before their admission to heaven.
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]The present article treats only of hell in the strict sense of the term.[/color]

While in a very loose sense one could say that after this life anywhere that is not the immediate presence of God is "hell" I have (in six years of seminary study) seen a single theologian describe Purgatory as some part of Hell, and certainly not to suggest that the punishments of Hell (pain of sense) are the same as those of Purgatory minus the pain of loss.

I would suspect the author of this article is simply being extremely thorough and technical. If there is such a theologian, though, I would be interested in the reference in context.
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#17
(03-16-2021, 10:02 PM)newenglandsun Wrote: These issues are incredibly speculative at times so I generally let smarter people discuss them.

As a Greek Catholic though, we understand that Our God is a consuming fire. All go through this fire. It either purifies them of their sins or it scorches their soul perpetually for unholiness cannot stand the presence of holiness. The former is purgative and is the final part of deification, the latter is Hell.

This is why in the various documents requiring the profession of Faith from Eastern Uniates, the term "purifying punishments" is used, and not "purifying fire". The Latin concept is that this fire is not God Himself but instead a grace of God giving a created purifying fire. That is not dogmatically required, and to hold that those who depart this life with Sanctifying Grace, but still unforgiven venial sins or temporal punishment due to sin, must have a purgation of some kind, the means of which are not strictly settled.

We can, of course, though, say what these purgative punishments are not.
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#18
(03-17-2021, 02:58 AM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(03-16-2021, 10:02 PM)newenglandsun Wrote: These issues are incredibly speculative at times so I generally let smarter people discuss them.

As a Greek Catholic though, we understand that Our God is a consuming fire. All go through this fire. It either purifies them of their sins or it scorches their soul perpetually for unholiness cannot stand the presence of holiness. The former is purgative and is the final part of deification, the latter is Hell.

This is why in the various documents requiring the profession of Faith from Eastern Uniates, the term "purifying punishments" is used, and not "purifying fire". The Latin concept is that this fire is not God Himself but instead a grace of God giving a created purifying fire. That is not dogmatically required, and to hold that those who depart this life with Sanctifying Grace, but still unforgiven venial sins or temporal punishment due to sin, must have a purgation of some kind, the means of which are not strictly settled.

We can, of course, though, say what these purgative punishments are not.
Strictly speaking, the fires are uncreated energies of God, distinct from His essence, but yes, this is true.
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#19
(03-16-2021, 11:50 PM)HedgeKnight Wrote: "Benign" how? Nobody should say it's a place you WANT to go or are aiming for because it's keeping you from the beatific vision but since it's purifying you it can't really be seen as an evil place, right?

Of course purgatory itself isn't evil.

But if it's merely "a waiting room," why do we pray, offer Masses, or do penance for the souls in purgatory? Why not let them wait it out and focus our efforts elsewhere? What's the harm in a few hundred years of waiting? It's nothing compared to eternity in paradise.

"Waiting room" analogies are wrong exactly because they diminish belief in the importance of offering our suffering for the souls in purgatory.

(03-17-2021, 09:08 AM)newenglandsun Wrote: Strictly speaking, the fires are uncreated energies of God, distinct from His essence, but yes, this is true.

The essence/energies distinction is a post-schism departure from traditional Christian understanding.
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#20
(03-17-2021, 09:34 AM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(03-17-2021, 09:08 AM)newenglandsun Wrote: Strictly speaking, the fires are uncreated energies of God, distinct from His essence, but yes, this is true.

The essence/energies distinction is a post-schism departure from traditional Christian understanding.
There are some who state that but there has never been formal statements made on this and Richard Swinburne has actually shown the Palamite doctrine to be quite in harmony with the Thomistic doctrine on this subject. As a matter of fact, St. Gregory Palamas actually draws influence from Cappadocians fathers such as St. Basil and St. Gregory the Theologian and he and St. Thomas Aquinas are heavily influenced by St. Dennis the Aeropagite. Far from being a post-schismatic departure from traditional Christian understanding, it is actually quite a flourishment of traditional Christian understanding.
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