Are the Order of the Arrow and college frats incompatible with Catholicism?
#11
(03-31-2021, 10:46 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(03-31-2021, 08:37 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: That's really quite fascinating.  I'd have never guessed that.  It is also interesting, but not surprising, that America's only Catholic founding father was still a Freemason.

If he hadn't been a Lodge Brother do you really think he would have been a Founding Father? It's unlikely, since many of the founders were Masons and much of the early part of the revolution (the Boston Tea Party, e.g) was planned in the lodges because of the secrecy.

I'm not really surprised by it.  I just hadn't given it much thought and so didn't realize the obvious.  The founding of the United States is deeply tainted by the Enlightenment.  In fact, without those ideals, I doubt there'd be a United States of America.  Oh well.  I'm not sure that there will be a USA for much longer.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#12
(03-31-2021, 08:26 AM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(03-31-2021, 07:44 AM)Marmot Wrote:
(03-30-2021, 05:32 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: Under canon law, in order for automatic excommunication to apply, you have to know that what you're doing is an act that will get you excommunicated.[url=https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2008/01/25/am-i-excommunicated/][/url]
Are you sure?

Yes, which is why I included the link to a canon lawyer, who discusses the relevant law and principles.  I cannot say that there are absolutely no circumstances that might admit of an exception to the general rule but canon law is clear in general: if you do not know that your action includes the penalty of excommunication, latae sententiae (i.e. automatic) excommunication is not imposed.  In addition to that, it sounds like this Order of the Arrow might be joined by someone under 16, which means excommunication is absolutely forbidden under current canon law.  Getting oneself excommunicated from the Church is not an easy task, to be honest.  As the linked article explains, a number of conditions must be met before it can happen.  So, our OP need not worry that having been a member of this order got him excommunicated (since, at the very least, he was ignorant of the possibility that he was committing an action that would result in said penalty). 

This says nothing, of course, as to whether it is a sin or not to join one of these groups.  My guess is that it really depends on the group and particulars.  Many college frats, for example, are havens for alcohol abuse and sexual promiscuity.  Some, however, are explicitly Christian organizations and so they might not be dens of iniquity.  I really know nothing about this Order of the Arrow, though.  My father refused to allow me to participate in the Boy Scouts when I was a kid.  When I asked him, in my teens, why, he said they were full of perverts.  Turns out, given the BSA's sex abuse scandals, he was right.  He was never involved with them, and so I don't know how he was aware of this at the time.  But I'm glad he never allowed me to be at risk there.

I think it was a case of homosexual infiltration, which the Church is only too familiar with sadly. I never had any issues in my troop with sex abuse nor had I heard of anything. To be honest I wouldn't be half the man I am today without the skills and guidance I received in becoming an Eagle Scout.
If it wasn't the case before though, it certainly is now. Anyone looking for a Scouting style program should look elsewhere. I've heard good things about Trail Life USA, and they explicitly require Christian families unlike the BSA which only needs one to believe in God in some capacity.
With no king to rule me I owe my fealty only to God.
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#13
From the National Catholic Register:

Concerned About the Boy Scouts? There Are Catholic Alternatives
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#14
(03-31-2021, 08:26 AM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(03-31-2021, 07:44 AM)Marmot Wrote:
(03-30-2021, 05:32 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: Under canon law, in order for automatic excommunication to apply, you have to know that what you're doing is an act that will get you excommunicated.[url=https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2008/01/25/am-i-excommunicated/][/url]
Are you sure?

Yes, which is why I included the link to a canon lawyer, who discusses the relevant law and principles.  I cannot say that there are absolutely no circumstances that might admit of an exception to the general rule but canon law is clear in general: if you do not know that your action includes the penalty of excommunication, latae sententiae (i.e. automatic) excommunication is not imposed.  In addition to that, it sounds like this Order of the Arrow might be joined by someone under 16, which means excommunication is absolutely forbidden under current canon law.  Getting oneself excommunicated from the Church is not an easy task, to be honest.  As the linked article explains, a number of conditions must be met before it can happen.  So, our OP need not worry that having been a member of this order got him excommunicated (since, at the very least, he was ignorant of the possibility that he was committing an action that would result in said penalty). 

This says nothing, of course, as to whether it is a sin or not to join one of these groups.  My guess is that it really depends on the group and particulars.  Many college frats, for example, are havens for alcohol abuse and sexual promiscuity.  Some, however, are explicitly Christian organizations and so they might not be dens of iniquity.  I really know nothing about this Order of the Arrow, though.  My father refused to allow me to participate in the Boy Scouts when I was a kid.  When I asked him, in my teens, why, he said they were full of perverts.  Turns out, given the BSA's sex abuse scandals, he was right.  He was never involved with them, and so I don't know how he was aware of this at the time.  But I'm glad he never allowed me to be at risk there.

I guess you shouldn't be part of the Catholic Church since it is full of abuse and perverts as well.
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#15
(03-30-2021, 05:19 PM)HedgeKnight Wrote: This morning I happened on Shane Shaetzel's blog detailing Freemasonry and the Canonical law decreeing why joining a lodge results in automatic excommunication. The language on a letter from Cardinal Ratzinger made me a bit worried.
 

It has been asked whether there has been any change in the Church’s decision in regard to Masonic associations since the new Code of Canon Law does not mention them expressly, unlike the previous Code.
This Sacred Congregation is in a position to reply that this circumstance in due to an editorial criterion which was followed also in the case of other associations likewise unmentioned inasmuch as they are contained in wider categories.
Therefore the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.
It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the Declaration of this Sacred Congregation issued on 17 February 1981 (cf. AAS 73 1981 pp. 240-241; English language edition of L’Osservatore Romano, 9 March 1981).
In an audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this Declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this Sacred Congregation.
Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 26 November 1983.
Joseph Card. RATZINGER
Prefect
+ Fr. Jerome Hamer, O.P.
Titular Archbishop of Lorium
Secretary



It mentions "Masonic association". When I was in the Boy Scouts I joined the Order of the Arrow and made it to Brotherhood. Never did anything in it besides (pulling what they call a "sash and dash") but I was part of two different ceremonies involved in it. As some of you might know, the OA was founded by Masons and has a vaguely Masonic structure though they are not directly associated with Freemasons. I went and looked up the ceremonies as well as all oaths involved in them since I couldn't remember a thing about them and aside from a reference to the Scout Oath on "duty to God and country" there are no lines involved in swearing an oath that denies Christ as the One True God or affirms some "supreme being" present in all religions making them all equal like the Mason's swear. Additionally, there's a specific disclaimer saying that none of the ceremonies (Ordeal and Brotherhood atleast, dunno about Vigil) may conflict with someone's religious beliefs. Actually in the ceremonies themselves even though there's an odd Indian pagan feel there's no reference to other spirits or gods other than referring to one's soul as a spirit. Most of the time it's all about brotherhood and fraternity though.

Have I incurred automatic excommunication by being in the OA? I don't believe so as I haven't found anything denying Christ and aside from some troublesome origins there's nothing about the OA being a Masonic associated organization. Also are there any college frats that would incur the same penalty? 
I've emailed the priest to my TLM about this but I'd like your opinions on this.

Oh and this shouldn't need saying but I reject any and all organizations I have been a part of that reject the Truth taught by the Catholic Church.


Why would being a member of the "Brotherhood of Cheerful Service" or OA be grounds for excommunication?   

Our parish still charters a Troop and Crew.  Heck our Pastor is going to play in a golf tournament this month which is a fundraiser for Boy Scouts.
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#16
(04-02-2021, 07:35 AM)farronwolf Wrote:
(03-31-2021, 08:26 AM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(03-31-2021, 07:44 AM)Marmot Wrote:
(03-30-2021, 05:32 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: Under canon law, in order for automatic excommunication to apply, you have to know that what you're doing is an act that will get you excommunicated.[url=https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2008/01/25/am-i-excommunicated/][/url]
Are you sure?

Yes, which is why I included the link to a canon lawyer, who discusses the relevant law and principles.  I cannot say that there are absolutely no circumstances that might admit of an exception to the general rule but canon law is clear in general: if you do not know that your action includes the penalty of excommunication, latae sententiae (i.e. automatic) excommunication is not imposed.  In addition to that, it sounds like this Order of the Arrow might be joined by someone under 16, which means excommunication is absolutely forbidden under current canon law.  Getting oneself excommunicated from the Church is not an easy task, to be honest.  As the linked article explains, a number of conditions must be met before it can happen.  So, our OP need not worry that having been a member of this order got him excommunicated (since, at the very least, he was ignorant of the possibility that he was committing an action that would result in said penalty). 

This says nothing, of course, as to whether it is a sin or not to join one of these groups.  My guess is that it really depends on the group and particulars.  Many college frats, for example, are havens for alcohol abuse and sexual promiscuity.  Some, however, are explicitly Christian organizations and so they might not be dens of iniquity.  I really know nothing about this Order of the Arrow, though.  My father refused to allow me to participate in the Boy Scouts when I was a kid.  When I asked him, in my teens, why, he said they were full of perverts.  Turns out, given the BSA's sex abuse scandals, he was right.  He was never involved with them, and so I don't know how he was aware of this at the time.  But I'm glad he never allowed me to be at risk there.

I guess you shouldn't be part of the Catholic Church since it is full of abuse and perverts as well.

I didn't condemn the entire Boy Scouts, or say that no one should have been a member, ever.  I observed that I am glad that my father didn't allow me to join at the time.  Regardless, the fact is simple enough: I don't need the Boy Scouts for eternal salvation.  Problems in a secular organization and problems in the divinely created Church of Christ merit different responses.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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