Refutation of Ubi Petrus
#11
You say you have no background in patristics and don't know how to refute the claims you hear on "Ubi Petrus".

What if you just accepted the Church's teachings on faith, ignored the heretics, and read St. Augustine and other Church Fathers (as well as St. Thomas Aquinas) for yourself? That would be a much better use of your time than listening to erudite heretics.
Dissolve frigus ligna super foco
large reponens atque benignius
     deprome quadrimum Sabina,
          O Thaliarche, merum diota.

Permitte divis cetera...
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#12
(04-01-2021, 02:48 AM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: Eh, there's too much to get into.  The dude has been doing his work for awhile now.  Youtube videos that run 2-3 hours long, articles that are very lengthy, etc.  Too much to unpack point by point.  

Well, that is a problem. I've never heard of or encountered Ubi or the gang he runs with until some months ago. So, his name is something that isn't on the radar. 

Asking for Catholics to give point by point refutations of a relatively unknown internet apologist (and I don't mean that to be condescending, just a statement of fact) is probably not going to result in much, which is why I asked to you try and replicate what the argument is, as you understand it. That might be something that we can deal with instead of watching a three hour video or reading a 12,000 word length blog post. Also, since he is interacting a lot with Lofton and Ybarra you could try reaching out to one of them and seeing where they would refer you.

And I hate to get preachy, but, gotta do it, I would tell you to be on guard about listening to multiple hour videos that you aren't having the time to absorb (something I myself am very guilty of). There is so much content out there that there is no way that anyone is going to be able to process all of it, so I would say that it might be better to get a solid source and do some reading in that. 

I'm not sure where you live, but if you have a solid Catholic priest, Latin or Greek, nearby where you live maybe ask him for spiritual direction.
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
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#13
(04-01-2021, 09:59 AM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-01-2021, 02:48 AM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: But I also don't accept that the papacy is absolutely necessary for salvation.  And that also goes with dogmas like infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc.

You are a formal heretic and need to submit to the teachings of the faith that you claim to profess before you attempt to influence others.

Maybe we all need to pump the brakes a little...
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
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#14
(04-01-2021, 11:18 AM)Justin Tertius Wrote:
(04-01-2021, 09:59 AM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-01-2021, 02:48 AM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: But I also don't accept that the papacy is absolutely necessary for salvation.  And that also goes with dogmas like infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc.

You are a formal heretic and need to submit to the teachings of the faith that you claim to profess before you attempt to influence others.

Maybe we all need to pump the brakes a little...

His culpability is unknown and probably greatly reduced by ignorance, but it is objectively true.

When someone holds an erroneous belief because they don't know what the Church teaches, that's material heresy.

When someone knows what the Church teaches and obstinately holds an erroneous belief in spite of this teaching, that's formal heresy.
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#15
(04-01-2021, 11:21 AM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote: His culpability is unknown and probably greatly reduced by ignorance, but it is objectively true.

When someone holds an erroneous belief because they don't know what the Church teaches, that's material heresy.

When someone knows what the Church teaches and obstinately holds an erroneous belief in spite of this teaching, that's formal heresy.

No, I understand where you are coming from, but there is this thing called tact.

If someone is inquiring and at least seems to be approaching this honestly, it might be better not to go and cast them as "formal heretics."

The saying is overused, but true, you catch more flies with honey (not that StJoe is a fly or anything.)
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
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#16
(04-01-2021, 11:41 AM)Justin Tertius Wrote: No, I understand where you are coming from, but there is this thing called tact.

If someone is inquiring and at least seems to be approaching this honestly, it might be better not to go and cast them as "formal heretics."

The saying is overused, but true, you catch more flies with honey (not that StJoe is a fly or anything.)

I know where you're coming from, but I don't believe that sugarcoating the OP's predicament is going to help him.
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#17
(04-01-2021, 09:59 AM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-01-2021, 02:48 AM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: But I also don't accept that the papacy is absolutely necessary for salvation.  And that also goes with dogmas like infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc.

You are a formal heretic and need to submit to the teachings of the faith that you claim to profess before you attempt to influence others.

That's the kind of cancerous talk that drove me out of traditional Catholicism to begin with.  The smug, holier than thou attitudes and the quickness which some leap, champing at the bit, to condemn others to Hell for all eternity because they don't meet their standard as a Catholic.  Be assured, your way of thinking is dying out, thanks be to God.  You are in the minority.  You can cling to the past if antiquinarianism brings you comfort.  But Rome no longer thinks as you do, and the entirety of the East do not think as you do.  In short, Catholicism no longer thinks as you do.
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#18
(04-01-2021, 12:48 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote:
(04-01-2021, 09:59 AM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-01-2021, 02:48 AM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: But I also don't accept that the papacy is absolutely necessary for salvation.  And that also goes with dogmas like infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc.

You are a formal heretic and need to submit to the teachings of the faith that you claim to profess before you attempt to influence others.

That's the kind of cancerous talk that drove me out of traditional Catholicism to begin with.  The smug, holier than thou attitudes and the quickness which some leap, champing at the bit, to condemn others to Hell for all eternity because they don't meet their standard as a Catholic.  Be assured, your way of thinking is dying out, thanks be to God.  You are in the minority.  You can cling to the past if antiquinarianism brings you comfort.  But Rome no longer thinks as you do, and the entirety of the East do not think as you do.  In short, Catholicism no longer thinks as you do.

Truth is cancer.  Correction is condemnation.  War is peace.
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#19
(04-01-2021, 02:48 AM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: Eh, there's too much to get into.  The dude has been doing his work for awhile now.  Youtube videos that run 2-3 hours long, articles that are very lengthy, etc.  Too much to unpack point by point.  I just figured since Ubi seems to be going through Catholic apologists like a knife through butter, that somewhere out there in the Catholic sphere, a solid and organized refutation of Ubi and his works was done.  It might just be that he is still too unknown to get noticed by the more well known apologists.

Thank you for including this information about your past and your current struggles.  It helps to know what the issues are for you.  I'll break this post down and offer some of my own thoughts (unfortunately, they won't be very deep or profound).  The first thing that I'd like to observe is that I've never heard of this guy before.  I follow a number of Catholic apologists, and they've made no mention of this guy.  So, I'm doubtful that he's going through Catholic apologists like a knife through butter.  I suspect that your latter observation, that he's too unknown to have gotten on the radar of a major Catholic apologist, is correct.  The second thing that I'd like to note is that, if this guy has a number of 2-3 hour videos, it is unlikely that any of us here have the time to go through even one of them and make an adequate rebuttal.  That doesn't mean he's right or has put together a good case.  A bad case can still take a lot of time to rebut.  In fact, a bad case can take even more time to rebut because so many corrections are needed.

Quote:When I burned out on Catholicism a few years ago, I spent a couple years not practicing.  During that time, I began looking into Orthodoxy.  I found myself predisposed to their arguments since I had an axe to grind with Rome.  Eventually, I found my way back to the Church.  But I am still feeling the effects of the apologetics I guess.  I can't help but struggle with accepting the papacy as I once did.

My experiences are kind of similar to this.  My faith in Catholicism waned a few years after my initial conversion.  Then, I was exposed to works like "Papal Sin" by Gary Wills and my faith crumbled to bits.  I ended up a schismatic that wandered about the Protestant sects (mostly).  As I began to return to the Catholic Church, I struggled a great deal with the erroneous thinking that I picked up outside the Church.  It took time to get a solid footing in my Catholic faith again.  One thing that I realized is that, given how much bad information there is out there, including apologetics (both Catholic and non-Catholic), I had to let go of my desire to find definitive answers to all my questions.  I also had to let go of a desire to reinvent the wheel and build my own personal brand of Catholicism (one that suited my personal beliefs).  I had to make the decision that Catholicism is true, even if I can't answer every objection against it or can't resolve every difficulty that I encounter.  I guess you could call it a leap of faith.  It has worked well for me.

Quote:I don't believe it is heretical or false, like the Orthodox do.  But I also don't accept that the papacy is absolutely necessary for salvation.  And that also goes with dogmas like infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc.  I could care less about the filioque and purgatory since those are non issues in my eyes.  But after seeing how the East operates (including the Eastern Catholic Churches), coming back to Rome and encountering this absolutist mindset of "You MUST submit to the Bishop of Rome, or you will burn in Hell for all eternity" is problematic.  It paints such a stark contrast with the loving God one encounters in the East (speaking more of Eastern Catholicism than Eastern Orthodoxy here).  

I think it would be beneficial if you could accept that the truth is nuanced.  The Catholic Church, including submission to the pope, is the normative means of salvation.  But Catholic theology has a well developed understanding of extraordinary means, involving things like invincible ignorance, that renders inaccurate any statement to the effect of "the papacy is absolutely necessary for salvation."  The nuance is to be found in the difference between ordinary and extraordinary situations, as well as the simple fact that we can hope for salvation but, contra the Protestants, cannot have total assurance thereof.  We must avoid two extremes: to allow our understanding of God's justice or His mercy to overwhelm the other.  If we do, you get things like Feeneyism (a warped view of God's justice, we might say) or near-universalism and religious indifferentism (a warped view of God's love).

Quote:I mean, it might make sense for me to just become an Eastern Catholic.  But my wife is pretty dead set on staying Roman.  And I don't have anything against Rome anymore.  I am just struggling to accept her positions on a lot of things.  And what makes it more difficult is seeing how many Eastern Catholics have a similar mindset.  It seems that the only ones saying "What Rome says goes, and that's that" are Roman Catholics themselves.  And even then, it's typically the traditional Catholics.  The majority of the Roman world seems to have moved on from that kind of thinking, for better or worse.  I just find myself not knowing what to believe anymore.

A messy situation, to be sure.  Do you need your wife's permission to become an Eastern Catholic?  Would she be enraged?  She doesn't have to make the switch with you.  Beyond that, I do not think you'll find the Eastern Catholics reject papal infallibility or universal jurisdiction.  If they do, I'd love to see a source for that.  It has always been my understanding that they do accept those dogmas.  And if I'm right about them doing so, perhaps you could profit from reading about those doctrines from Eastern Catholic sources.  Perhaps they understand and explain them in a way that will be easier for you to accept.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#20
(04-01-2021, 12:48 PM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote:
(04-01-2021, 09:59 AM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-01-2021, 02:48 AM)StJosephPrayForUs Wrote: But I also don't accept that the papacy is absolutely necessary for salvation.  And that also goes with dogmas like infallibility, universal jurisdiction, etc.

You are a formal heretic and need to submit to the teachings of the faith that you claim to profess before you attempt to influence others.

That's the kind of cancerous talk that drove me out of traditional Catholicism to begin with.  The smug, holier than thou attitudes and the quickness which some leap, champing at the bit, to condemn others to Hell for all eternity because they don't meet their standard as a Catholic.  Be assured, your way of thinking is dying out, thanks be to God.  You are in the minority.  You can cling to the past if antiquinarianism brings you comfort.  But Rome no longer thinks as you do, and the entirety of the East do not think as you do.  In short, Catholicism no longer thinks as you do.

Respectfully, why are you on a traditional Catholic forum, if you think so little of us?  Reddit has the very active r/Catholicism.  If you so dislike traditional Catholic beliefs and see us as dying dinosaurs, that place is more apt to provide you with what you're looking for.  I'm happy to have you here as a member but you seem to think very poorly of us.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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