Interesting article : What Is Behind Francis’ Rehabilitation of Judas?
(04-11-2021, 06:33 AM)Oliver109 Wrote:  "Every mortal sin destroys grace in our souls, so one is all it takes to go to hell, and every mortal sin is an intentional rejection of God. " While that is largely true it does not seem to mean that mortal sin is a barrier to salvation, serious as mortal sin is it seems that God makes repentance absolutely possible after commiting it so it is by no means life destroying though it is certainly damaging to one's general relationship with God. 

Mortal sin does not merely damage one's relationship with God. It destroys it totally. The relationship is completely severed, and the sanctifying grace provided by God for one's salvation ceases to exist in one's soul. Every mortal sin is damning, and any willful reliance on extraordinary, non-sacramental means of absolution is presumption, a grave sin itself.

If one can't get to the sacrament in time, that's not reliance, and we can have hope. But if one ignores the Church, ignores calls for repentance, and chooses for years never to avail oneself of the sacraments, there's much less cause for hope.
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(04-11-2021, 03:55 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 06:33 AM)Oliver109 Wrote:  "Every mortal sin destroys grace in our souls, so one is all it takes to go to hell, and every mortal sin is an intentional rejection of God. " While that is largely true it does not seem to mean that mortal sin is a barrier to salvation, serious as mortal sin is it seems that God makes repentance absolutely possible after commiting it so it is by no means life destroying though it is certainly damaging to one's general relationship with God. 

Mortal sin does not merely damage one's relationship with God.  It destroys it totally.  The relationship is completely severed, and the sanctifying grace provided by God for one's salvation ceases to exist in one's soul.  Every mortal sin is damning, and any willful reliance on extraordinary, non-sacramental means of absolution is presumption, a grave sin itself.

If one can't get to the sacrament in time, that's not reliance, and we can have hope.  But if one ignores the Church, ignores calls for repentance, and chooses for years never to avail oneself of the sacraments, there's much less cause for hope.
Surely it is better to presume than to despair though? i mean God is hardly unlikely to damn someone because they expect to be forgiven, isn't going to Confession a form of presumption in that you expect forgiveness by going?
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Your thinking is seriously messed up.  Confession is the divinely instituted means for obtaining forgiveness.  We rely on Our Lord's promise of forgiveness in going to confession.  It is not by any means a form of presumption.
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(04-11-2021, 04:02 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Surely it is better to presume than to despair though?

No, and both are grave sins. Those words have specific meanings. In a Catholic context, they do not describe emotions. They describe acts of the will.

(04-11-2021, 04:02 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: i mean God is hardly unlikely to damn someone because they expect to be forgiven

Well, expecting to be forgiven outside of the sacrament of forgiveness is literally the grave sin presumption, so I'd say yes, someone would be damned for that.

(04-11-2021, 04:02 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: isn't going to Confession a form of presumption in that you expect forgiveness by going?

No. Where did you get that idea?
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(04-11-2021, 04:14 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 04:02 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Surely it is better to presume than to despair though?

No, and both are grave sins.  Those words have specific meanings.  In a Catholic context, they do not describe emotions.  They describe acts of the will.

(04-11-2021, 04:02 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: i mean God is hardly unlikely to damn someone because they expect to be forgiven

Well, expecting to be forgiven outside of the sacrament of forgiveness is literally the grave sin presumption, so I'd say yes, someone would be damned for that.

(04-11-2021, 04:02 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: isn't going to Confession a form of presumption in that you expect forgiveness by going?

No.  Where did you get that idea?
What is the difference in expecting to be forgiven in Confession and expecting to be forgiven outside of Confession? while it is better to go to Confession surely God is just happy that someone wants to be forgiven?
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(04-11-2021, 04:17 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What is the difference in expecting to be forgiven in Confession and expecting to be forgiven outside of Confession?

What is the difference between a sacrament vs. not a sacrament?

What is the difference between baptizing with water in a Trinitarian formula vs. getting sprayed with champagne after an F1 race?

What is the difference between receiving Holy Communion vs. going to Burger King?
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(04-11-2021, 04:21 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 04:17 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What is the difference in expecting to be forgiven in Confession and expecting to be forgiven outside of Confession?

What is the difference between a sacrament vs. not a sacrament?

What is the difference between baptizing with water in a Trinitarian formula vs. getting sprayed with champagne after an F1 race?

What is the difference between receiving Holy Communion vs. going to Burger King?
Is God as rigid as us? The Church once widely taught that all the unbaptized could not make it to Heaven, the Church now teaches that anyone is able to get to Heaven if they lead a good life, sacraments like Confession are important as they give Catholics the reassurance that they have been forgiven but not receiving the sacraments is i am sure not a barrier to salvation.
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(04-11-2021, 04:25 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Is God as rigid as us?

Is God as rigid as we?

(04-11-2021, 04:25 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: The Church once widely taught that all the unbaptized could not make it to Heaven, the Church now teaches that anyone is able to get to Heaven if they lead a good life

The Church doesn't teach this. If it was a priest who filled your mind with this nonsense, pray for his conversion.

(04-11-2021, 04:25 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: sacraments like Confession are important as they give Catholics the reassurance that they have been forgiven but not receiving the sacraments is i am sure not a barrier to salvation.

Why are you sure?
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(04-11-2021, 04:35 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 04:25 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Is God as rigid as us?

Is God as rigid as we?

(04-11-2021, 04:25 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: The Church once widely taught that all the unbaptized could not make it to Heaven, the Church now teaches that anyone is able to get to Heaven if they lead a good life

The Church doesn't teach this.  If it was a priest who filled your mind with this nonsense, pray for his conversion.

(04-11-2021, 04:25 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: sacraments like Confession are important as they give Catholics the reassurance that they have been forgiven but not receiving the sacraments is i am sure not a barrier to salvation.

Why are you sure?
I believe in mercy first and foremost, i am a strong believer in the idea of fair play and we get an equal outcome at the end with extra rewards going to those who have suffered more in life, you could say i am a spiritual socialist in that i believe in the idea of meritocracy and that we need to look on those who have failed with mercy rather than condemnation.
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(04-11-2021, 04:44 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: I believe in mercy first and foremost, i am a strong believer in the idea of fair play and we get an equal outcome at the end with extra rewards going to those who have suffered more in life, you could say i am a spiritual socialist in that i believe in the idea of meritocracy and that we need to look on those who have failed with mercy rather than condemnation.

So you believe God is unjust, and you haven't read the Gospels, got it.
Dissolve frigus ligna super foco
large reponens atque benignius
     deprome quadrimum Sabina,
          O Thaliarche, merum diota.

Permitte divis cetera...
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