Interesting article : What Is Behind Francis’ Rehabilitation of Judas?
#21
(04-08-2021, 08:06 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 08:01 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:57 PM)Bonaventure Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:07 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What is your opinion on the Catechism's opinion?

The Catechism is quite clear:

Quote:[The Fifth Commandment] also forbids suicide. No man possesses such power over his own life as to be at liberty to put himself to death. Hence we find that the Commandment does not say: Thou shalt not kill another, but simply: Thou shalt not kill. ~The Catechism of the Council of Trent (Roman Catechism)

Quote:1 Q. What does the Fifth Commandment: Thou shalt not kill, forbid?
A. The Fifth Commandment, Thou shalt not kill, forbids us to kill, strike, wound or do any other bodily harm to our neighbour, either of ourselves or by the agency of others; as also to wish him evil, or to offend him by injurious language. In this Commandment God also forbids the taking of one’s own life, or suicide.
...
7 Q. Why does God, in the Fifth Commandment, forbid the taking of one’s own life or suicide?
A. In the Fifth Commandment God forbids suicide, because man is not the master of his own life no more than of the life of another. Hence the Church punishes suicide by deprivation of Christian burial.

~Catechism of St. Pius X

Note: No denial was made as being a Catholic Answers Refugee.
Yep the church obviously forbids suicide but like i posted in the previous comment the Cathechism gives us hope that even people who have committed suicide should not certainly be damned, it makes sense to me for the Church to say that suicide is a mortal sin but it's forgiveness is not impossible.
How exactly can that happen practically? Once one commits suicide they literally have no chance to repent because, you know, they’re dead. Right after death is when particular judgement happens. There is no pause in between death and judgment for us to repent of the mortal sin of suicide. I feel like this catechism (not surprisingly) is being vague and trying to appease all the crowds. You cannot be saved with a mortal sin on your hands, but suicide is a mortal sin, thus you cannot be saved after suicide. There is no way to turn this around.
I don't know how it would work but it makes sense, the exact quote mentions that  "By ways known to Him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance." so it is as mysterious to us as bilocation is or virtually every miracle, it is beyond our scientific understanding. 
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#22
(04-08-2021, 08:09 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 08:06 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 08:01 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:57 PM)Bonaventure Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:07 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What is your opinion on the Catechism's opinion?

The Catechism is quite clear:

Quote:[The Fifth Commandment] also forbids suicide. No man possesses such power over his own life as to be at liberty to put himself to death. Hence we find that the Commandment does not say: Thou shalt not kill another, but simply: Thou shalt not kill. ~The Catechism of the Council of Trent (Roman Catechism)

Quote:1 Q. What does the Fifth Commandment: Thou shalt not kill, forbid?
A. The Fifth Commandment, Thou shalt not kill, forbids us to kill, strike, wound or do any other bodily harm to our neighbour, either of ourselves or by the agency of others; as also to wish him evil, or to offend him by injurious language. In this Commandment God also forbids the taking of one’s own life, or suicide.
...
7 Q. Why does God, in the Fifth Commandment, forbid the taking of one’s own life or suicide?
A. In the Fifth Commandment God forbids suicide, because man is not the master of his own life no more than of the life of another. Hence the Church punishes suicide by deprivation of Christian burial.

~Catechism of St. Pius X

Note: No denial was made as being a Catholic Answers Refugee.
Yep the church obviously forbids suicide but like i posted in the previous comment the Cathechism gives us hope that even people who have committed suicide should not certainly be damned, it makes sense to me for the Church to say that suicide is a mortal sin but it's forgiveness is not impossible.
How exactly can that happen practically? Once one commits suicide they literally have no chance to repent because, you know, they’re dead. Right after death is when particular judgement happens. There is no pause in between death and judgment for us to repent of the mortal sin of suicide. I feel like this catechism (not surprisingly) is being vague and trying to appease all the crowds. You cannot be saved with a mortal sin on your hands, but suicide is a mortal sin, thus you cannot be saved after suicide. There is no way to turn this around.
I don't know how it would work but it makes sense, the exact quote mentions that  "By ways known to Him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance." so it is as mysterious to us as bilocation is or virtually every miracle, it is beyond our scientific understanding. 
Would you agree that this is an entirely new proclamation? Or would you say this is what the Church has consistently taught when faced with the fact that both the Catechisms of Trent and Pope St. Pius X seem to flatly disagree with this statement. If this applies to suicide, why does it not apply to all other mortal sins, or at least those of less graveness than suicide itself, which is murder!?
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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#23
(04-08-2021, 08:11 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 08:09 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 08:06 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 08:01 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:57 PM)Bonaventure Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:07 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What is your opinion on the Catechism's opinion?

The Catechism is quite clear:

Quote:[The Fifth Commandment] also forbids suicide. No man possesses such power over his own life as to be at liberty to put himself to death. Hence we find that the Commandment does not say: Thou shalt not kill another, but simply: Thou shalt not kill. ~The Catechism of the Council of Trent (Roman Catechism)

Quote:1 Q. What does the Fifth Commandment: Thou shalt not kill, forbid?
A. The Fifth Commandment, Thou shalt not kill, forbids us to kill, strike, wound or do any other bodily harm to our neighbour, either of ourselves or by the agency of others; as also to wish him evil, or to offend him by injurious language. In this Commandment God also forbids the taking of one’s own life, or suicide.
...
7 Q. Why does God, in the Fifth Commandment, forbid the taking of one’s own life or suicide?
A. In the Fifth Commandment God forbids suicide, because man is not the master of his own life no more than of the life of another. Hence the Church punishes suicide by deprivation of Christian burial.

~Catechism of St. Pius X

Note: No denial was made as being a Catholic Answers Refugee.
Yep the church obviously forbids suicide but like i posted in the previous comment the Cathechism gives us hope that even people who have committed suicide should not certainly be damned, it makes sense to me for the Church to say that suicide is a mortal sin but it's forgiveness is not impossible.
How exactly can that happen practically? Once one commits suicide they literally have no chance to repent because, you know, they’re dead. Right after death is when particular judgement happens. There is no pause in between death and judgment for us to repent of the mortal sin of suicide. I feel like this catechism (not surprisingly) is being vague and trying to appease all the crowds. You cannot be saved with a mortal sin on your hands, but suicide is a mortal sin, thus you cannot be saved after suicide. There is no way to turn this around.
I don't know how it would work but it makes sense, the exact quote mentions that  "By ways known to Him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance." so it is as mysterious to us as bilocation is or virtually every miracle, it is beyond our scientific understanding. 
Would you agree that this is an entirely new proclamation? Or would you say this is what the Church has consistently taught when faced with the fact that both the Catechisms of Trent and Pope St. Pius X seem to flatly disagree with this statement. If this applies to suicide, why does it not apply to all other mortal sins, or at least those of less graveness than suicide itself, which is murder!?
I would imagine this is more to do with development of doctrine, why it does not apply to other mortal sins i am not sure, i think it could personally, what is revolutionary about this particular teaching is that it seems to teach that suicide can be forgiven if God has his way and the sinner accepts to repent(at some point)
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#24
(04-08-2021, 08:17 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 08:11 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 08:09 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 08:06 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 08:01 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:57 PM)Bonaventure Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 07:07 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What is your opinion on the Catechism's opinion?

The Catechism is quite clear:

Quote:[The Fifth Commandment] also forbids suicide. No man possesses such power over his own life as to be at liberty to put himself to death. Hence we find that the Commandment does not say: Thou shalt not kill another, but simply: Thou shalt not kill. ~The Catechism of the Council of Trent (Roman Catechism)

Quote:1 Q. What does the Fifth Commandment: Thou shalt not kill, forbid?
A. The Fifth Commandment, Thou shalt not kill, forbids us to kill, strike, wound or do any other bodily harm to our neighbour, either of ourselves or by the agency of others; as also to wish him evil, or to offend him by injurious language. In this Commandment God also forbids the taking of one’s own life, or suicide.
...
7 Q. Why does God, in the Fifth Commandment, forbid the taking of one’s own life or suicide?
A. In the Fifth Commandment God forbids suicide, because man is not the master of his own life no more than of the life of another. Hence the Church punishes suicide by deprivation of Christian burial.

~Catechism of St. Pius X

Note: No denial was made as being a Catholic Answers Refugee.
Yep the church obviously forbids suicide but like i posted in the previous comment the Cathechism gives us hope that even people who have committed suicide should not certainly be damned, it makes sense to me for the Church to say that suicide is a mortal sin but it's forgiveness is not impossible.
How exactly can that happen practically? Once one commits suicide they literally have no chance to repent because, you know, they’re dead. Right after death is when particular judgement happens. There is no pause in between death and judgment for us to repent of the mortal sin of suicide. I feel like this catechism (not surprisingly) is being vague and trying to appease all the crowds. You cannot be saved with a mortal sin on your hands, but suicide is a mortal sin, thus you cannot be saved after suicide. There is no way to turn this around.
I don't know how it would work but it makes sense, the exact quote mentions that  "By ways known to Him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance." so it is as mysterious to us as bilocation is or virtually every miracle, it is beyond our scientific understanding. 
Would you agree that this is an entirely new proclamation? Or would you say this is what the Church has consistently taught when faced with the fact that both the Catechisms of Trent and Pope St. Pius X seem to flatly disagree with this statement. If this applies to suicide, why does it not apply to all other mortal sins, or at least those of less graveness than suicide itself, which is murder!?
I would imagine this is more to do with development of doctrine, why it does not apply to other mortal sins i am not sure, i think it could personally, what is revolutionary about this particular teaching is that it seems to teach that suicide can be forgiven if God has his way and the sinner accepts to repent(at some point)
Oath against Modernism: [b]I entirely reject the heretical’ misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously.[/b] 
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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#25
It would appear that a primer on proper use of quoting in responses is necessary.
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#26
(04-08-2021, 08:06 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote: How exactly can that happen practically? Once one commits suicide they literally have no chance to repent because, you know, they’re dead. Right after death is when particular judgement happens. There is no pause in between death and judgment for us to repent of the mortal sin of suicide. I feel like this catechism (not surprisingly) is being vague and trying to appease all the crowds. You cannot be saved with a mortal sin on your hands, but suicide is a mortal sin, thus you cannot be saved after suicide. There is no way to turn this around.

You can possibly repent between the time you attempt to kill yourself and the time you actually die. Padre Pio once told a woman her husband, who committed suicide by jumping off a bridge, was saved, because he repented between the bridge and the water. Mortal sin also requires full consent and knowledge, and perhaps mental illness mitigates that.

Yet if Judas was saved, then our Lord wouldn't have said it would have been better for him to never have been born.
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#27
(04-08-2021, 10:08 PM)Paul Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 08:06 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote: How exactly can that happen practically? Once one commits suicide they literally have no chance to repent because, you know, they’re dead. Right after death is when particular judgement happens. There is no pause in between death and judgment for us to repent of the mortal sin of suicide. I feel like this catechism (not surprisingly) is being vague and trying to appease all the crowds. You cannot be saved with a mortal sin on your hands, but suicide is a mortal sin, thus you cannot be saved after suicide. There is no way to turn this around.

You can possibly repent between the time you attempt to kill yourself and the time you actually die. Padre Pio once told a woman her husband, who committed suicide by jumping off a bridge, was saved, because he repented between the bridge and the water. Mortal sin also requires full consent and knowledge, and perhaps mental illness mitigates that.

Yet if Judas was saved, then our Lord wouldn't have said it would have been better for him to never have been born.
There are those fateful words but the ultimate question of this thread is: Was the rehabilitation of Judas impossible? despair is an awful sin but the forgiveness of despair can eventually take place, according to St Augustine there is no reason why God saves some and not others, there has not been an adequate explanation as to why some are called and others are reprobated so the damnation of Judas seems unjust when other terrible sinners were saved after maybe committing even more sins.
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#28
(04-08-2021, 10:30 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Was the rehabilitation of Judas impossible?

Is this speculation necessary? Will idle talk save Judas? Will it save anyone? Will it do anything other than scandalize?
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#29
(04-08-2021, 10:44 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-08-2021, 10:30 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Was the rehabilitation of Judas impossible?

Is this speculation necessary?  Will idle talk save Judas?  Will it save anyone?  Will it do anything other than scandalize?
I don't know what was going through Judas mind when he hanged himself but it was probably similar to what goes through the mind of lots of people that commit suicide, the fundamental thing is about God being fair and ensuring that those that are damned are only damned because their salvation is impossible through every mean, that would go against St Augustine's teaching where he never denied that it was impossible for God to save everyone ultimately(not that he was a universalist though he was never able to give a full explanation as to why some are damned.
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#30
(04-08-2021, 10:08 PM)Paul Wrote: Yet if Judas was saved, then our Lord wouldn't have said it would have been better for him to never have been born.
It seems to me that this must be the last word. I really don't see how one can read this statement, believe that Jesus is God, and still think that Judas Iscariot was saved.

Douay-Rheims, Matt 26:
Quote:[21] And whilst they were eating, he said: Amen I say to you, that one of you is about to betray me. [22] And they being very much troubled, began every one to say: Is it I, Lord? [23] But he answering, said: He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, he shall betray me. [24] The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born. [25] And Judas that betrayed him, answering, said: Is it I, Rabbi? He saith to him: Thou hast said it.
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