Interesting article : What Is Behind Francis’ Rehabilitation of Judas?
#51
(04-10-2021, 06:32 PM)LionHippo Wrote: The Roman Catholic Church of 2021 (and probably for the last 60 years) is the Church of "pretty much everyone's going to heaven."  We can say all we want about former Councils, things written on paper, even Scripture itself, but the fact is that the Church operates as if her reason for existence - the salvation of souls - is a quaint afterthought of an extinct faith.  The great irony persists in that as Catholics, our understanding of the Faith and identity as Catholic are tied to acknowledgment and a degree of obedience to the hierarchy, and yet if one wishes to remain Catholic he must practically ignore or even go against these very people.  One can remain in this state of cognitive dissonance for only so long.
Isn't the whole point in the idea of everyone going to Heaven just simply plain fair play? i mean i am not a universalist by a long shot in that i don't think there is enough evidence that everybody will and can be saved but i am still not happy with the idea that God overlooks merits and reprobates possibly anyone, St Augustine had a hard time grappling with this issue and admitted that the idea of God saving some but not others was hard to grasp, that the judgements of God were to him inscrutable. The idea of fair play, that those who struggle in life should win in the end has a lot of popularity, one of the great things about English culture is that we believe that those who struggle in life must be rewarded, for God to deny someone the chance to be forgiven goes against the whole concept of fair play.
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#52
Jesus warns of hell numerous times in the Gospels.

What is "fair" is that He gives us the present time to repent.  I don't understand how it is "fair play" to reward someone who obstinately refuses Him and His will.  People have time right up to the time of death to repent.
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#53
(04-10-2021, 07:09 PM)Evangelium Wrote: Jesus warns of hell numerous times in the Gospels.

What is "fair" is that He gives us the present time to repent.  I don't understand how it is "fair play" to reward someone who obstinately refuses Him and His will.  People have time right up to the time of death to repent.
Well the point is that people don't generally obstinately refuse God, many live their lives in and out of sin and so it is only fair for God to ensure that people die when they are in a state of grace, even St Augustine admitted that everyone could be saved if God wished but he leaves some to be reprobates because of the divine pleasure, unless you hold on to the Molinist view where God forsees someone's eternal life and knows that their repentance will never take place, though i prefer the Thomist view myself even though it's frequent lack of mercy and overemphasis on justice is chilling.
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#54
(04-10-2021, 02:39 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Of course only God can really know

He did know, and He told us, and it's recorded in the Scriptures. The difference isn't Judas's sin, which he could have been forgiven for, but that God told us he was damned.
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#55
Oliver109 Wrote:
Evangelium Wrote:Jesus warns of hell numerous times in the Gospels.

What is "fair" is that He gives us the present time to repent.  I don't understand how it is "fair play" to reward someone who obstinately refuses Him and His will.  People have time right up to the time of death to repent.
Well the point is that people don't generally obstinately refuse God, many live their lives in and out of sin and so it is only fair for God to ensure that people die when they are in a state of grace, even St Augustine admitted that everyone could be saved if God wished but he leaves some to be reprobates because of the divine pleasure, unless you hold on to the Molinist view where God forsees someone's eternal life and knows that their repentance will never take place, though i prefer the Thomist view myself even though it's frequent lack of mercy and overemphasis on justice is chilling.

I have a problem with you dictating to God what is fair.
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#56
(04-10-2021, 07:53 PM)Evangelium Wrote:
Oliver109 Wrote:
Evangelium Wrote:Jesus warns of hell numerous times in the Gospels.

What is "fair" is that He gives us the present time to repent.  I don't understand how it is "fair play" to reward someone who obstinately refuses Him and His will.  People have time right up to the time of death to repent.
Well the point is that people don't generally obstinately refuse God, many live their lives in and out of sin and so it is only fair for God to ensure that people die when they are in a state of grace, even St Augustine admitted that everyone could be saved if God wished but he leaves some to be reprobates because of the divine pleasure, unless you hold on to the Molinist view where God forsees someone's eternal life and knows that their repentance will never take place, though i prefer the Thomist view myself even though it's frequent lack of mercy and overemphasis on justice is chilling.

I have a problem with you dictating to God what is fair.
If you are happy to see God choosing to save who he saves then that is that but i love justice, i love fairness and to see two sinners and God giving one all the graces that are needed to be saved while passing over the other one, i find that difficult to grasp and it violates what i consider fair play. I am desperate for an answer from God about this but i have not got one.
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#57
I understand that in the Catholic religion we all are deserving of Hell and God chooses who he chooses but there still has to be a reason why he chooses some and not others, maybe he found them more his sort of company, maybe God thought that sinner A did not try hard enough to repent while sinner B did, maybe God could not save sinner A because sinner A was simply unfit for Heaven and would find it horrible, who knows?
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#58
You may be Catholic, but you have Calvinist preoccupations.
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#59
(04-10-2021, 08:29 PM)Evangelium Wrote: You may be Catholic, but you have Calvinist preoccupations.
I disagree, Calvinists believe that God forces people to be damned i don't believe that. Catholics or rather Thomists believe that God permits people to be damned but can give them enough grace to be saved if he so wishes, Molinists are the only people who believe that God cannot control who is saved and who isn't maybe you are in that camp? there is a strong Molinist strain in the Church today which presents God as rather helpless while millions of people make their way to Hell, i don't hold on to that view, the Thomist teaching where God chooses who he chooses makes more sense to me but i just wish it could be expanded to God choosing everybody instead of just a few.
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#60
I believe that God gives sufficient grace to everyone.  God wills that all men be saved.  1 Timothy 2:4.  People choose whether or not to cooperate with His grace.  He does not force anyone.

To claim that God's grace is irresistible is Jansenist. You are saying that God "chooses" certain people as if they did not need to cooperate with His grace.
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