Interesting article : What Is Behind Francis’ Rehabilitation of Judas?
#61
(04-10-2021, 09:19 PM)Evangelium Wrote: I believe that God gives sufficient grace to everyone.  God wills that all men be saved.  1 Timothy 2:4.  People choose whether or not to cooperate with His grace.  He does not force anyone.

To claim that God's grace is irresistible is Jansenist.  You are saying that God "chooses" certain people as if they did not need to cooperate with His grace.
Your thinking is molinist, Molinists believe that God gives everyone grace to be saved and that God knows that some will reject that grace and be lost, Augustinians and Thomists believe that God gives some sufficient grace but that is not enough for them to be saved as they will still reject that sufficient grace in the end, they believe that only irresistible grace can have the desired effects. 


"From eternity, God made a free and unconditional decree to save a few 2 [2 The doctrine of Augustine does not by any means involve the conclusion that the elect are " few " or " a small number."] from the mass that was corrupted and subjected to damnation. To those whom he predestinated to this salvation, he gives the requisite means for the purpose. But on the rest, who do not belong to this small number of the elect, the merited ruin falls. Christ came into the world and died for the elect only."
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#62
(04-10-2021, 09:45 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 09:19 PM)Evangelium Wrote: I believe that God gives sufficient grace to everyone.  God wills that all men be saved.  1 Timothy 2:4.  People choose whether or not to cooperate with His grace.  He does not force anyone.

To claim that God's grace is irresistible is Jansenist.  You are saying that God "chooses" certain people as if they did not need to cooperate with His grace.
Your thinking is molinist, Molinists believe that God gives everyone grace to be saved and that God knows that some will reject that grace and be lost, Augustinians and Thomists believe that God gives some sufficient grace but that is not enough for them to be saved as they will still reject that sufficient grace in the end, they believe that only irresistible grace can have the desired effects. 


"From eternity, God made a free and unconditional decree to save a few 2 [2 The doctrine of Augustine does not by any means involve the conclusion that the elect are " few " or " a small number."] from the mass that was corrupted and subjected to damnation. To those whom he predestinated to this salvation, he gives the requisite means for the purpose. But on the rest, who do not belong to this small number of the elect, the merited ruin falls. Christ came into the world and died for the elect only."

No, no...

Everyone is given sufficient grace.  It is not efficient in every individual.
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#63
Oliver109 Wrote:"From eternity, God made a free and unconditional decree to save a few 2 [2 The doctrine of Augustine does not by any means involve the conclusion that the elect are " few " or " a small number."] from the mass that was corrupted and subjected to damnation. To those whom he predestinated to this salvation, he gives the requisite means for the purpose. But on the rest, who do not belong to this small number of the elect, the merited ruin falls. Christ came into the world and died for the elect only."

Oliver, where is this quote from?  Who are you quoting?
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#64
(04-10-2021, 09:50 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 09:45 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 09:19 PM)Evangelium Wrote: I believe that God gives sufficient grace to everyone.  God wills that all men be saved.  1 Timothy 2:4.  People choose whether or not to cooperate with His grace.  He does not force anyone.

To claim that God's grace is irresistible is Jansenist.  You are saying that God "chooses" certain people as if they did not need to cooperate with His grace.
Your thinking is molinist, Molinists believe that God gives everyone grace to be saved and that God knows that some will reject that grace and be lost, Augustinians and Thomists believe that God gives some sufficient grace but that is not enough for them to be saved as they will still reject that sufficient grace in the end, they believe that only irresistible grace can have the desired effects. 


"From eternity, God made a free and unconditional decree to save a few 2 [2 The doctrine of Augustine does not by any means involve the conclusion that the elect are " few " or " a small number."] from the mass that was corrupted and subjected to damnation. To those whom he predestinated to this salvation, he gives the requisite means for the purpose. But on the rest, who do not belong to this small number of the elect, the merited ruin falls. Christ came into the world and died for the elect only."

No, no...

Everyone is given sufficient grace.  It is not efficient in every individual.
I am sure you are aware of the differences in the teaching of Augustine, Aquinas and Molina, the Molinist view seems to be the main one among a lot of Catholics, the Augustinian and Thomistic view teaches that God is not hindered and could potentially give anyone enough grace to be saved, he that is God chooses not to and all Augustine could say about that was: "God works in the heart of human beings to bend their wills wherever he wills" and how God has no reason as to why he saves one sinner and not the other, in other words God has not given a reason as to why some are not saved, i think it has to be up to us to find one.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Why did not God give to Judas the same efficacious, infallibly successful grace of conversion as to St. Peter, whose blasphemous denial of the Lord was a sin no less grievous than that of the traitor Judas? To all these and similar questions the only reasonable reply is the word of St. Augustine (loc. cit., 21): "Inscrutabilia sunt judicia Dei" (the judgments of God are inscrutable).
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#65
(04-10-2021, 09:56 PM)Evangelium Wrote: Oliver, where is this quote from?  Who are you quoting?
From an article by A.A. Hodge on a protestant site called Monergism. It's point 4 on the page.

https://www.monergism.com/augustines-wri...-free-will
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
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#66
(04-10-2021, 10:02 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 09:50 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 09:45 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 09:19 PM)Evangelium Wrote: I believe that God gives sufficient grace to everyone.  God wills that all men be saved.  1 Timothy 2:4.  People choose whether or not to cooperate with His grace.  He does not force anyone.

To claim that God's grace is irresistible is Jansenist.  You are saying that God "chooses" certain people as if they did not need to cooperate with His grace.
Your thinking is molinist, Molinists believe that God gives everyone grace to be saved and that God knows that some will reject that grace and be lost, Augustinians and Thomists believe that God gives some sufficient grace but that is not enough for them to be saved as they will still reject that sufficient grace in the end, they believe that only irresistible grace can have the desired effects. 


"From eternity, God made a free and unconditional decree to save a few 2 [2 The doctrine of Augustine does not by any means involve the conclusion that the elect are " few " or " a small number."] from the mass that was corrupted and subjected to damnation. To those whom he predestinated to this salvation, he gives the requisite means for the purpose. But on the rest, who do not belong to this small number of the elect, the merited ruin falls. Christ came into the world and died for the elect only."

No, no...

Everyone is given sufficient grace.  It is not efficient in every individual.
I am sure you are aware of the differences in the teaching of Augustine, Aquinas and Molina, the Molinist view seems to be the main one among a lot of Catholics, the Augustinian and Thomistic view teaches that God is not hindered and could potentially give anyone enough grace to be saved, he that is God chooses not to and all Augustine could say about that was: "God works in the heart of human beings to bend their wills wherever he wills" and how God has no reason as to why he saves one sinner and not the other, in other words God has not given a reason as to why some are not saved, i think it has to be up to us to find one.

I didn't make any claims about God's ability to grant grace in addition to that amount which is sufficient for an individual.
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#67
jovan66102 Wrote:
Evangelium Wrote:Oliver, where is this quote from?  Who are you quoting?
From an article by A.A. Hodge on a protestant site called Monergism. It's point 4 on the page.

https://www.monergism.com/augustines-wri...-free-will

Oliver, why are you reading Protestants on grace? This exaggerated Augustinianism is Jansenistic.
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#68
(04-10-2021, 10:13 PM)Evangelium Wrote:
jovan66102 Wrote:
Evangelium Wrote:Oliver, where is this quote from?  Who are you quoting?
From an article by A.A. Hodge on a protestant site called Monergism. It's point 4 on the page.

https://www.monergism.com/augustines-wri...-free-will

Oliver, why are you reading Protestants on grace?
I was there unaware about the Protestant aspect of the site, i was looking for Augustine's teaching which was relevant to this topic.
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#69
Since the misinterpretation of St Augustine is at the root of the heresies of protestantism and Jansenism, it might be a good idea to check your sources.,
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#70
(04-10-2021, 10:19 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: Since the misinterpretation of St Augustine is at the root of the heresies of protestantism and Jansenism, it might be a good idea to check your sources.,
Apologies about  accidently quoting from a Protestant source, anyway back to the topic at hand.
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