Interesting article : What Is Behind Francis’ Rehabilitation of Judas?
Universalism? Havent heard good things... Tread carefully
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(04-11-2021, 10:57 PM)Evangelium Wrote: Has anyone here read Dare We Hope that All Men Be Saved by Hans Urs Von Balthasar?

Yes. His argument is basically the following.


We cannot know the eternal state of any individuals (except those who have been canonized).
Therefore we cannot know that any individual is in Hell.

But if there is hope that each individual is in Heaven, there is also hope that all individuals are in Heaven.


Secondarily, he admits that we are bound to believe in the existence of Hell, and in the possibility that we could end up there, but not that anyone actually does end up there.

His other arguments that we should hope that all individuals are in Heaven are exactly what you would expect from a full-fledged universalist. He's not one because he admits the possibility of Hell... kind of.

Honestly, not really worth the read unless you have a particular reason to read it. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone who wasn't already very well catechized... in other words, I wouldn't recommend it to someone who was likely to believe it.
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I think St. Francis de Sales said something like that it's charitable to hope for the salvation of each person (such as dead relatives) and pray for them in case they be in purgatory, but that doesn't mean we should believe that all are saved. Christ says "broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat". Well if Christ says there are many, why should we say there is nobody?
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(04-10-2021, 04:48 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 04:07 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 02:39 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Of course only God can really know but i thought the whole point of the thread was to try and see just how much Pope Francis will be able to rehabilitate Judas, i mean we always see him as the bad disciple but fundamentally his bad deeds tally was probably no greater than that of many of the apostles.

With the exception of St John, they all died rather than betray Christ. Judas betrayed Him. Christ Himself said it would be better for Judas had he not been born. It's plain to most people, but obviously not to Francis or you, that if he had not been born he couldn't have gone to hell. 
What myself and probably Francis are saying is that it would not be impossible for Christ to save Judas, Christ said a lot of things that we should not take literally, saying it would be better for Judas to have not been born is of course not quite literal as Christ needed Judas to exist and one could say that even existing in Hell is better than not existing at all. Judas was all of us who have sinned, i am hopeful he was given another chance maybe just in the very moment he died to ask for forgiveness.

Some errors here. First a truth, Christ could have forgiven Judas if Judas had repented. PERSONAL OPINION, if Judas had done this, I think he may have been counted one of the greatest apostles. It MAY have spurred a great zeal in him to be completely steadfast in his faith, kind of like Peter after denying Christ three times. How much more zeal could have come from not only denying Him, but betraying Him, being forgiven by Him in person?

But, that is not what happened. Judas fell into despair, believed his sin was so great that God could not forgive him, and he killed himself. Farther down will get to his list of other sins leading up to this.

First off on your errors, the idea that Christ was not literally speaking the truth here due to Judas being necessary for salvation. Wrong. Judas was not necessary for salvation at all. God did not create Judas for the sole reason to commit a grave sin inorder to have a great good come from it. This thought process is saying that God willed that Judas does this grave act of literally selling God out, that way God can act on His plan. God does not will that people turn from Him, betray Him. He wants all to be in Heaven. Judas acted on his own to turn God Himself over to be killed, it was not by the prompting of God. Jesus had a parable about this idea, talking about how can satan cast out satan? Or better put for this case, how can God commit/do evil when evil is against the very nature of God? I say this because that is what this is implying. If Judas had remained steadfast to God, then our redemption would have been through a different means. My opinion, the high priests would have gotten someone else to do it, or since it is written that they were plotting his demise, I am pretty sure they had more then one plot going, not just Judas. Thus, God would still have died for us.

Second, the idea that Christ was using allegory and not speaking frank here. My understanding is that we know when Christ was being frank and when He was talking in parables, allegory etc, from the magesterieum. Since the magesterieum (to my knowledge) from the time of the apostles up to now have held that Jesus was talking frank, then the only conclusion is that He was talking frank. I would argue against the idea of never existing is worse then Hell. Our very purpose of existing is so we can know, love and worship God. Our existence is for that alone. Hell, is the absence of that. To live in eternity separated from God, tormented by a desire to be with Him, yet knowing you have chosen forever to not be with Him (we cast ourselves to hell), ontop of being tormented ceaselessly by demons, I dont know how that is better then never existing. That, and I take God as truthful, so when (guided by the magesteriem in our understanding of this passage) God, who is the creator of everything and everyone, states it would be better that this one individual, the only individual in history that we have a recording that God says this about and I believe to their face, that it would have been better if I (God) never created them... makes you really pause and consider how bad hell really is for God to say something like that.

Yes, there is hope for that. A very slim hope that Judas had a complete confession before he died. We as Catholics hold that hope also for all people that are evil, such as hitler, luther, muhammad, etc. There is a massive case against them, especially Judas, however, there is still that chance they did repent completely at the moment of death, and we can hope in that. Likely? Especially for Judas, no.

Now, to demonstrate why that hope is so small. First, church teaching is that it takes one mortal sin to go to hell, one knowing action to turn from God, to in a sense, turn from God. Lets look at Judas.

Mortal sin 1) Sacrilege. He consumed the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin. How did he you might ask? Well, he ate the Eucharist wile planning on betraying God. Betraying God, turning Him over to be killed is, well, mortal sin. Yes, the washing of the feet was done which was in a sense the first confession, a washing of the sins in a sense. However, if this was the first confession and resulted in sins also being washed away, the fact that Judas would have gone into this wanting and willing, on top of planning on, committing a mortal sin would have negated the fact.

Mortal sin 2) Betraying God. I should not need to describe how betraying God Himself is a turning away and complete rejection of God, and thus is a mortal sin.

Mortal sin 3) Despair. The unforgivable sin if you will, complete despair in your sin(s). This sin is unforgivable because it, by its nature, means you wont seek forgiveness, thus it cant be forgiven. This sin is the sin of believing your sin is so great, God could never forgive it. It makes sin greater then God, and also is directly a sin against the Holy Spirit.

Mortal sin 4) Suicide. Murder is one of the mortal sins. Killing oneself is murder, but worse for you in that it is also cutting substantially the time to repent before you are judged by God. Paul either murdered or had a hand in the murder of many people. However, he had a lifetime after to repent of this, to seek forgiveness. A person who commits suicide... not really.

Thus, in a short amount of time, 4 grave sins are committed by Judas, and possible even more. One of these is all it takes for you to choose hell (suicide may have mitigating factors, such as not clear of the consequences etc) over God, but Judas has at least 4 with little to show for him seeking any forgiveness from God. From man, yes, but not God.

Last point, one my dad brought up once with me. The apostles wrote him off as not one of them any more, not deserving of being counted as a christian. Let me explain. Upon their death, every apostle except one was not replaced. They have a successor to their chair, their title, but they them self were not replaced. We talk of popes as succeeding Peter, not replacing him.
Judas is the one exception. He was directly replaced, and written out of the apostolic lineage. In a sense, this means from the very beginning of the church, the magesteriem has declared that one who was in their original numbers has no lineage to Christ anymore, and thus is not one of them. That is a very telling indictment from the earliest of the church.
(04-11-2021, 06:33 AM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 11:59 PM)Paul Wrote:
(04-10-2021, 11:07 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: What i was trying to say is that our merits should count for something, why should someone who does a lot of good in life but happens to die before getting to Confession be damned while someone who did a lot of bad in life but dies after getting to Confession be saved? Merit should count and i am sure God could enable a way for people with a lot of merit to seek forgiveness before they are forced to die.

Because that's not how it works. The formula for salvation is very simple. Sanctifying Grace + Death = Heaven.

One who dies in a state of grace goes to heaven. One who dies lacking grace goes to hell. We don't earn heaven through good works, and, unlike the ancient Egyptian belief, God doesn't balance the good and bad and send us to heaven or hell based on that. Every mortal sin destroys grace in our souls, so one is all it takes to go to hell, and every mortal sin is an intentional rejection of God. Maybe God does take merit into account, and delays death for some to allow confession, but we'd never know in this life.
 "Every mortal sin destroys grace in our souls, so one is all it takes to go to hell, and every mortal sin is an intentional rejection of God. " While that is largely true it does not seem to mean that mortal sin is a barrier to salvation, serious as mortal sin is it seems that God makes repentance absolutely possible after commiting it so it is by no means life destroying though it is certainly damaging to one's general relationship with God. 

Largely true? In what case is it not true exactly? What mortal sins are there that arent, you know, mortal? Two types of sin, venial and mortal. Venial damages our relationship with God, but does not end it. Mortal, means.... well... mortal. It is a matter of mortality, life. Something that is mortal involves life and death. In the case of mortal sin, it is death. You do this, it ends your sanctified life. It can be repaired, thanks be to God there, but it is an ending of your relationship with God.

What you are wrongly correlating is that idea that since God, after we repent and seek Him, He can repair the relationship with us through forgiveness in confession, that He also does it a) without us seeking Him and b) after we die. Our time on earth, as God Himself tells us all the time in the gospels, is all we have. Our death and then judgment will come like a thief in the night. Once we die, we die. If you have mortal sin on your soul at that point, that implies you do not have a relationship with God anymore, and you dont want one. You choose to not have one with God, and damn yourself to hell at that point. Mortal sin is that serious. There are mitigating factors to it that can make it less severe (how often committed, did you have free choice, right state of mind, etc) but it is still grave grave matter.

(04-11-2021, 05:20 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 04:54 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 04:25 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Is God as rigid as us? The Church once widely taught that all the unbaptized could not make it to Heaven, the Church now teaches that anyone is able to get to Heaven if they lead a good life, sacraments like Confession are important as they give Catholics the reassurance that they have been forgiven but not receiving the sacraments is i am sure not a barrier to salvation.

I don't know where you're getting ideas like this, but they have nothing to do with Catholicism. The Church has NEVER said that 'anyone is able to get to Heaven if they lead a good life'. She has taught, in her infallible teaching that if one dies in a state of grace, one goes to heaven after any necessary purgation of the temporal guilt for one's ABSOLVED sins. If one dies in a state of mortal sin, one goes to hell, no matter how good a life they have led.

If '
not receiving the sacraments is ... not a barrier to salvation', Christ flat out LIED when he said, in the great Eucharistic discourse in John 6, verse 54, Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.'
"She has taught, in her infallible teaching that if one dies in a state of grace, one goes to heaven after any necessary purgation of the temporal guilt for one's ABSOLVED sins. If one dies in a state of mortal sin, one goes to hell, no matter how good a life they have led." Why does the church place more importance on a short moment like death rather than on the whole of ones life? i mean someone is either good or wicked in life, why does the minute around death make such a difference to one's eternal outcome? and isn't it a bit unfair for one sinner to sin after confession and die and go to Hell while another sinner goes to confession and dies before they may sin again? it just seems blatantly unfair. 

We do because its what has been handed to us from God. That minute is the one time in your life that matters the most. Your life is supposed to be training for, running the race if you will, to God. Every action you make, be it good or evil, every choice you make (for or against God) is in preparing for that one time, your death. Momento Mori, remember death. At death, that last moments of your life, those are the very last seconds you have to seek God before you see Him. He will judge you, every action, every thing. You dont get another chance after you die to seek forgiveness, to choose Him. This makes everything on earth so infinitely more valuable because it all matters.

No, its not unfair. That sinner that died right after committing a mortal sin, and doing so after confession even, just chose to go turn his back on God. He chose hell. Why then is it unfair for them to go to hell if they chose it? A venial sin will not cause this, mortal sin will. Think a mafia person, goes to confession, then murders someone. They die instantly by getting hit by a car after leaving the scene of the crime. Tell me, does that person, based on the facts we are presented, does that person 'deserve' heaven? No! They, after being in a state of grace (arguable if they were already planning to commit mortal sin, if they woudl be absolved but that is a different matter), after choosing God, they turn their back on Him and decide they want hell. How that unfair, unjust?

(04-11-2021, 05:28 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 05:24 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 05:20 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: it just seems blatantly unfair. 

It only seems unfair viewed through the haze of habitual sin.  Eventually, you'll learn to love the moral law.
I just see it as unfair that God saves some sinners and not all, lets face it huge numbers of people have chosen Hell at least for a few moments in their life, how can some be saved and others not? where is the fairness in that?

Most people at some time will choose hell. Only some will choose God after choosing Hell. It is an error to think that people will naturally choose God just because we think it sounds good and 'fair', but the reality is that most people dont. God Himself stated that many many people (arguable most based on what God Himself said, such as in the parable of the roads leading to heaven and hell). We can hope in the salvation of many (most, all), but reality is that there are not many that choose God in this life, nor at death.

(04-11-2021, 06:28 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 06:27 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 06:18 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: Is God unable to save all because some people will actually never repent even if they were given an eternity to repent?

Is God unable to make an apple that looks, smells, and tastes exactly like a banana?
Is it impossible for God to save all? is it impossible for some people to ever find God? Do some people love sin so much that they would happily crawl their way into Hell and beg God to let them in?

Impossible, ish. If God was to do that, He would be taking away our free will to choose Him or not. God is love. A fundamental part of that is free will. God loves us, as is His nature. Thus He gives us free will. To impose heaven on everyone, even the many that choose to reject Him, would not be loving to them, nor loving to those that chose Him. It also would not be just. Thus, could He? arguable. Will He? Most likely not, borderline an absolute no.

Do people love sin so much they throw themselves at it rather then God? Yes. Look at sexual perversion. Mary said that more people go to hell due to sins of the flesh (sexual) then any other type of sin. Thus, again, look at sexual perversion. Natural law dictates that different sexual acts are always wrong. Homosexual sin is always wrong. Heterosexual sins are always wrong if not in marriage (some stipulations even in marriage what is allowed and not). Go take a poll of any teen, young adult couple engaging in premarital sex, would they rather stop and turn to God, or keep having sex and go to hell. I would be willing to bet that the majority will just laugh at you and continue committing mortal sin.

(04-11-2021, 08:20 PM)Oliver109 Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 08:14 PM)Paul Wrote:
(04-11-2021, 08:05 PM)Oliver109 Wrote: I have always seen justice to be the same as fairness anyway, being just means giving one what is due based on their merits and demerits so If God is just would he not save everyone if it was possible?

Justice would send us all to Hell. God’s mercy allows some of us to be saved.

You also seem to assume that God directly causes everything, and actively chooses the time we will die. He might permit it, but He doesn’t actively make the bus speed up to run over the mortal sinner on his way to confession.

Is it unjust for a murderer who got away with it for years and has lived a good life since to not go to prison when he’s finally caught? Is that fair?

Likewise, by choosing to commit mortal sin, one accepts the possible consequence that his time may come without confession first. 

Why should God force someone to spend eternity with Him when, by his actions and will, has chosen to reject God?
"Why should God force someone to spend eternity with Him when, by his actions and will, has chosen to reject God?" Because he was not always choosing sin, he may have stumbled occasionally into sin but he ultimately wanted to overcome it but gave in to temptation but had God allowed him to live i am sure that he would eventually asked for forgiveness! 

In the cases like that, we can hope in their salvation, possible the case of say a man that committed mortal sin for a long time, has a true and absolute conversion, is making his way to the first confession he can... and gets struck by a car (cars are deadly apparently). He dies before he can go to confession. Similar to the situation of a person that is entering the church, after a life time of searching, sin etc, is doing everything they can to get write with God, and dies on the way to the easter Vigil and is not able to fully be brought into the church. We can hope in God's mercy that their intentions, their desires was for Him at the point of death, that God will count that in a sense as their desire for salvation with Him, and granted then grace before death. We dont know, can pray for them. I am willing to bet though many many people, dare I say most, this does not apply to. The case above of the young adults fornicating. They may get some desires for God here and their, but they are continually rejecting Him to the point that it starts to be a habit.  They are like most people in today's world, little to no regard for God, they want the nice time of Heaven, while also keeping all the vice, mortal sin, etc of this world.  We can pray for their souls, but there is not much hope for them unless they choose God fully.
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This just seems to be the latest pet project of the modern church's Edgelord Theologians.
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(04-14-2021, 04:29 PM)LionHippo Wrote: This just seems to be the latest pet project of the modern church's Edgelord Theologians.

Did they outsource their theology to Marilyn Manson? Lol
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(04-14-2021, 04:46 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(04-14-2021, 04:29 PM)LionHippo Wrote: This just seems to be the latest pet project of the modern church's Edgelord Theologians.

Did they outsource their theology to Marilyn Manson? Lol

Maybe they'll use his version of "Personal Jesus" as a communion hymn, if they haven't already.
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Considering that Judas is pretty much the patron of the novus ordo hierarchy, this makes perfect sense.
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