Do You Think Attending The New Mass Is A Sin?
#81
(05-06-2021, 08:50 PM)MagisterMusicae Wrote:
(05-06-2021, 08:07 PM)absolutistcath Wrote: the NO mass is valid so it is not sinful or wrong to go to it, but you should try not to especially if it is a church that has more modernism than normal, as it can lead to you losing faith.

A Black Mass is valid also, but I doubt it would be free from sin for one to attend it.

That is written not to equate the Novus Ordo Mass to a Black Mass, but to suggest that perhaps validity is not the benchmark that ought to be used.

Another comparison, the Eastern Orthodox have valid sacraments. Would a Catholic be free from sin by going to the Orthodox for Confirmation? the Divine Liturgy? Confession?

Also, if a thing is going to "lead to you losing faith" is that not sinful to expose oneself to it?
Black mass...valid?


I am sorry...but WHAT?
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#82
(05-06-2021, 08:52 PM)Anon777 Wrote: Black mass...valid?


I am sorry...but WHAT?
Black masses use a consecrated Host... thus technically they are valid as the Body and Blood of Our Lord are present...
also, the possibility of a consecrated priest performing a black mass is always there.
Weep no more, Most Sorrowful Mother, for I am here. I have not wallowed in my sin any longer, for I have returned to you and your Son. Please do not cry anymore for my once cold heart; I have found your Immaculate One to guide me.
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#83
(04-22-2021, 03:04 PM)Marmot Wrote:
(04-22-2021, 01:42 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote: Trent?
Physics is the study of the properties of matter by observation, that is, physics studies the accidents of material things. If the Eucharist were to be subject to a physical examination, nothing but the observable properties of bread and wine would be found, down to the very last atom. That is exactly what it means that in the Eucharist, the accidents of bread and wine remain.

The relevant canons of Trent:
Quote:CANON I.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema.
The physicist in his laboratory cannot detect that Christ is in the Eucharist. He is truly there - "truly, really, and substantially" - but invisibly, and hence not physically. Christ is physically in Heaven. If Christ were to be physically present in the Eucharist, we would be able to see Him with our eyes, unless He were to perform a miracle to deceive our senses.

However I will admit that if you use another definition of "physically" than the one most commonly used today, you might say that Christ is physically present in the Eucharist. But then, using such a definition, there would be many physical realities that could not be studied by physicists.

Start at CCC 1373 and go from there.  http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P41.HTM

Christ is physically present in the eucharist.

Quote:1373 "Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us," is present in many ways to his Church:195 in his word, in his Church's prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name,"196 in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned,197 in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But "he is present . . . most especially in the Eucharistic species."198

1374 The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."199 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."200 "This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."201

1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. the Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:

It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. the priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God's. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.202

and St. Ambrose says about this conversion:

Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. the power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed.... Could not Christ's word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.203

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."204

1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.205
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#84
Nobody denies that. What I'm saying is that the mode of Christ's presence in the Eucharist is not physical in the sense of physics as an empirical science. If the atoms and molecules of the consecrated Host were to be examined by a physicist, nothing other than the accidents of bread would be found.
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