Ape of the Church?
#1
The recent thread on the norvus ordo and is it ok to attend, got me thinking about the phrase/prophesy if you will of Ven Fulton Sheen and the Ape of the Church.

https://dwightlongenecker.com/fulton-she...tholicism/
https://www.romancatholicman.com/archbis...h-today-2/


Most quotes are pulled from the second one, the first is a second reference I used to verify quotes. I read the quotes of Sheen and did a quick look at todays church. Im not a prophet by far, just reading the warnings from Mary, Ven Sheen, St Lucy, of these times, and looking outside and going, "...huh... this oddly correlates."

First, from Mary.

“Thus I make it known to you that from the end of the 19th century and shortly after the middle of the 20th century…the passions will erupt and there will be a total corruption of morals...
As for the Sacrament of Matrimony, which symbolizes the union of Christ with His Church, it will be attacked and deeply profaned. Freemasonry, which will then be in power, will enact iniquitous laws with the aim of doing away with this Sacrament, making it easy for everyone to live in sin and encouraging procreation of illegitimate children born without the blessing of the Church … In this supreme moment of need for the Church, the one who should speak will fall silent….

          -We have seen the attacks all over the place in todays world, and starting to see them more and more in the church herself. The last bit, the one who should speak will fall silent, makes me think of Pope John 23rd, NOT speaking when he should when he refused to reveal the 3rd secret, and the consecration of Russia was deferred. If that had happened, I wonder how different the world would have been.


St Lucy:

“The final battle between the Lord and the reign of Satan will be about marriage and the family. Don’t be afraid … because anyone who operates for the sanctity of marriage and the family will always be contended and opposed in every way, because this is the decisive issue … however, Our Lady has already crushed its head”

-Sister Lucia, visionary of  Fatima

           - I find it interesting of late with this quote of St. Lucy that most people, myself included, have held to the idea that this fight will be between the church and society as a whole. What is interesting of late is that the battle lines are being drawn not between society and the church, but more a civil war of sorts in the church herself. Almost like there are two separate churchs in a sense, one that follows God and one that dosent. As the situation continues over 'blessing' homosexual marriages, as well as the church in germany, this quote starts to have a different emphasis today.


Quote:“[Satan] will set up a counterchurch which will be the ape of the [Catholic] Church … It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content.”

   
 
We are living in the days of the Apocalypse, the last days of our era. The two great forces – the Mystical Body of Christ and the Mystical Body of the anti-Christ – are beginning to draw battle lines for the catastrophic contest.


 
The False prophet will have a religion without a cross. A religion without a world to come. A religion to destroy religions. There will be a counterfeit Church.
Christ’s Church the Catholic Church will be one; and the false Prophet will create the other.

        -Makes me think of the constant talk from the Pope, bishops, the church as a whole about the hear and now. Few times do we hear about the world to come anymore, heaven and hell, its almost all about the now. Very rare do we hear about suffering for Christ, the cross of the christian faith, vs what we mostly hear of fraternity, being friends, and happy feelings in a sense.

 
The False Church will be worldly, ecumenical, and global. It will be a loose federation of churches and religions, forming some type of global association.

       - It can be argued the from Vatican 2 on, the church became far more worldly, ecumenical, global. St Pope JP2 is even described as the global pope. The church appears to have had a massive shift in the middle of the 20th century to 'be more relevent to the world', as if it wasn't relevant to lead people to God, offer the eternal sacrifice etc. Ecumenical has been the catch phrase for the last 50+ years, being fraternal and open to everyone. We even have large gatherings now of joint services with pagans, protestants, muslims, etc, and joint ventures (abrahamic center) to combine and unite various religions together in worship and gathering. All this is being done with little to no call to conversion, evangelization about Christ, etc. It is being done rather then in the name of Christ, its done in the name of Fraternity. Thus, a religion is being pushed without the cross, without Christ, uniting others.... odd.
 
A world parliament of Churches. It will be emptied of all Divine content, it will be the mystical body of the anti-christ. The Mystical Body on earth today will have its Judas Iscariot, and he will be the false prophet. Satan will recruit him from our Bishops.

            -Emptied of divine content, the lack of calls to conversion of non believers, the lack of clearly expressing the divine content of the faith and instead focusing on ecological and fraternal content is worrying in this light.
 
The Antichrist will not be so called; otherwise he would have no followers. He will not wear red tights, nor vomit sulphur, nor carry a trident nor wave an arrowed tail as Mephistopheles in Faust. This masquerade has helped the Devil convince men that he does not exist. When no man recognizes, the more power he exercises. God has defined Himself as “I am Who am,” and the Devil as “I am who am not.”

                - Reminds me of a few details. One, the lack of discussing sin, and declaring stuff sinful. Two, the continual drive to declare sinful things good (divorce remarrige, homosexuality etc) that we hear in the church today, plus the blind eye turned to these acts and people that push it but the hammer falls on those that speak out agaisnt them and declares them sinful. Three, the rehabilitation of Judas. Four, the last statment of the devil saying "I am who am not" NOT SAYING THE POPE IS THE DEVIL!!! But it is odd that he continues to refuse to declare himself such in a sense, the changing of his name and such in the yearbook, the way popes have dressed since vatican 2 of refusing to dress in what has been the 'papal' dress of their office, etc. Its odd
 
Nowhere in Sacred Scripture do we find warrant for the popular myth of the Devil as a buffoon who is dressed like the first “red.” Rather is he described as an angel fallen from heaven, as “the Prince of this world,” whose business it is to tell us that there is no other world. His logic is simple: if there is no heaven there is no hell; if there is no hell, then there is no sin; if there is no sin, then there is no judge, and if there is no judgment then evil is good and good is evil. But above all these descriptions, Our Lord tells us that he will be so much like Himself that he would deceive even the elect–and certainly no devil ever seen in picture books could deceive even the elect. How will he come in this new age to win followers to his religion?

        - Who am I to judge" statements from the Pope, as mentioned above the push to make evil good (homosexuality, divorce remarriage etc) and good (as in licit) evil (capitol punishment, the constant drive to get rid of celibacy in the clergy, etc). Also, backing a little up in this quote, the constant emphasis on just this world, making heaven on earth rather then making earth a point of getting TOO heaven. The ecological emphasis rather then making sure we are headed to heaven emphasis.
 
The pre-Communist Russian belief is that he will come disguised as the Great Humanitarian; he will talk peace, prosperity and plenty not as means to lead us to God, but as ends in themselves …

           - Little is mentioned now in any talks with other religions about converting so we can get people to God, heck God is rarely mentioned anymore. What is mentioned is humanity, being a good humanitarian, fraternity of all. The talk we have is making the world a better place not for God's sake, but our and our children's sake. Peace not for Christ or in Christ, but peace for the sake of the brotherhood of man.
 
The third temptation in which Satan asked Christ to adore him and all the kingdoms of the world would be His, will become the temptation to have a new religion without a Cross, a liturgy without a world to come, a religion to destroy a religion, or a politics which is a religion–one that renders unto Caesar even the things that are God’s.

           - Without a cross mentioned above, liturgy without a world to come mentioned above but is a constant call-out when describing the difference between the TLM and the NO, the lack of emphasis the NO has on the world to come vs the TLM which centers itself on it. Religion to destroy religion, the mass unifying of all under the banner of fraternity, brotherhood, ecology, seems to be doing this. Making a new religion that pulls all under its wing, replacing Christ and God as the core and instead having fraternity of man and ecology at its core. Every religion is being pushed to do this, muslims stop killing people not because of God or Christ, but because of the fraternity of mankind. Etc.
 
In the midst of all his seeming love for humanity and his glib talk of freedom and equality, he will have one great secret which he will tell to no one: he will not believe in God. Because his religion will be brotherhood without the fatherhood of God, he will deceive even the elect. He will set up a counterchurch which will be the ape of the Church, because he, the Devil, is the ape of God. It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content. It will be a mystical body of the Antichrist that will in all externals resemble the mystical body of Christ …

                 -It has been stated in various interviews of dubious credibility this very fact, that the pope does not believe in God. I doubt that is true, what is interesting is the stuff around it, the brotherhood of man is the religion of the ape of the church, and thus they dont have the fatherhood of God. The lack of God as the core of everything, lack of calling people to conversion too God, and the constant call of conversion to the brotherhood of man... troubling.
 
But the twentieth century will join the counterchurch because it claims to be infallible when its visible head speaks ex cathedra from Moscow on the subject of economics and politics, and as chief shepherd of world communism.”

                  -Supposed to have the counterchurch in the 20th century according to this, something to ponder. The counter church, fake church will speak ex cathedra, from the chair, thus from the chair of peter, on matters of economics and politics.... and what is spoken will be communism. When you listen to what has been stated by this pope about economics and politics, you start to scratch your head more especially when it is communistic in nature.
 
(Fulton J. Sheen, Communism and the Conscience of the West [Bobbs-Merril Company, Indianapolis, 1948], pp. 24-25)


In short, lots of head scratching when you read the quotes/prophesies and then look at todays world (the era that these prophesies are supposed to encompass) and see similarities. Yes, every era has had prophecies of doom and gloom, and every era you can pick things out that fit that narrative. I dont know though of an era that Mary picked out herself to talk on, followed by warnings from Mary of the final battle specifically though. Thus, I tend to see these having more credence in general then most other types of prophesies of end time stuff.
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#2
(04-22-2021, 11:34 AM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: The last bit, the one who should speak will fall silent, makes me think of Pope John 23rd, NOT speaking when he should when he refused to reveal the 3rd secret, and the consecration of Russia was deferred. If that had happened, I wonder how different the world would have been.

It could mean that.

It could also refer to an ongoing failure. We know there are many Judases among the clergy who want to "marry" two men or two women. But how many faithful clergy refuse to speak out against them and their heresy?

How many of us fail to uphold the institution of marriage when we vote? Or when we attend a second marriage? Or when we attend a Catholic's "marriage" outside the Church?
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#3
(04-22-2021, 12:08 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(04-22-2021, 11:34 AM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: The last bit, the one who should speak will fall silent, makes me think of Pope John 23rd, NOT speaking when he should when he refused to reveal the 3rd secret, and the consecration of Russia was deferred. If that had happened, I wonder how different the world would have been.

It could mean that.

It could also refer to an ongoing failure.  We know there are many Judases among the clergy who want to "marry" two men or two women.  But how many faithful clergy refuse to speak out against them and their heresy?

How many of us fail to uphold the institution of marriage when we vote?  Or when we attend a second marriage?  Or when we attend a Catholic's "marriage" outside the Church?

That is a very valid point. How often have clergy and layity (myself included by far) stayed silent when there was evil going on around us? Stayed silent about correcting a wrong or even standing up for Christ? A very important thing to keep in mind.
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#4
Every Catholic should say something. Each one of has that opportunity.

First, from Mary.

“Thus I make it known to you that from the end of the 19th century and shortly after the middle of the 20th century…the passions will erupt and there will be a total corruption of morals...
As for the Sacrament of Matrimony, which symbolizes the union of Christ with His Church, it will be attacked and deeply profaned. Freemasonry, which will then be in power, will enact iniquitous laws with the aim of doing away with this Sacrament, making it easy for everyone to live in sin and encouraging procreation of illegitimate children born without the blessing of the Church … In this supreme moment of need for the Church, the one who should speak will fall silent….”


This is history. Starting in 1952, due to constant pressure on the courts in the US, it occurred that 'men's magazines' were allowed to do something they were not previously allowed to do. In 1955, there were various laws in different states regarding how much, or how little, a stripper could wear. The goal was clear: graphic pornography published somewhere by the end of the 1950s and sold "privately," to graphic pornography in the 1970s sold openly. With the pornographers being defended by lawyers.

What Pope John XXIII did not do, or should have done, is a matter of speculation.
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#5
(04-22-2021, 12:38 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: That is a very valid point. How often have clergy and layity (myself included by far) stayed silent when there was evil going on around us? Stayed silent about correcting a wrong or even standing up for Christ? A very important thing to keep in mind.

Some years ago, I was a groomsman in a wedding between a Catholic and a non-Catholic that was conducted outside the Church by a layman.

If I were asked to do it again today, I would have to decline. I'd almost certainly lose a friend in the process. But we have to do what's right.
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#6
First of all, is the Fulton Sheen quote authentic?
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#7
Have not read the book but from what in seeing it is. Im seeing the same quotes referenced on websites you can buy the book from, from websites that are more middle of the road (Fr Longnecker) as well as sites that are more sede in nature.
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#8
My biggest thing though, is if these quotes are true (and so far not seeing anything that says they aren't), then looking at the church today, its hard to argue that the ape of the church is here, no? Looking at the specific things Ven Fultan Sheen lists out as what the anti church and ape of the church will have and look like, it very much looks like the church of today. I am still in the R&R faction, but this shook it alot to be honest.
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#9
(04-22-2021, 04:32 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: My biggest thing though, is if these quotes are true (and so far not seeing anything that says they aren't), then looking at the church today, its hard to argue that the ape of the church is here, no? Looking at the specific things Ven Fultan Sheen lists out as what the anti church and ape of the church will have and look like, it very much looks like the church of today. I am still in the R&R faction, but this shook it alot to be honest.
1. I agree completely. Once being in the R+R faction for a long while, I understand exactly what you mean. It’s hard to try to reconcile the True Church with the post-conciliar church, the two are just so staunchly opposite from each other. The actions of those in the post- would be seen as abominable in the Pre-.

2. I don’t want to detract from the conversation so that’s why I ask, do you mind talking about the R+R position with me?

3. Concerning the quotes, and primarily the fact that John XXIII refused to reveal the Third Secret of Our Lady at Fatima, I believe this just shows the plain wickedness that the man had. Pius XII is purported to have seen the miracle of the Sun itself, given to him by Our Lady, as well as having three times seen a bright light on his walks through the Vatican, signaling to him that he must “dogmafy” the Assumption of Our Lady. Where is this beautiful dedication to Our Lady in the refusal of John XXIII? It is absent! It is gone! Instead is placed a selfish refusal to reveal the secret, which most likely spoke of Vatican II, because it was already in the preparatory phases. And we, as Faithful Catholics, are supposed to recognize this man as a Saint?
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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#10
(04-22-2021, 04:32 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: My biggest thing though, is if these quotes are true (and so far not seeing anything that says they aren't), then looking at the church today, its hard to argue that the ape of the church is here, no? Looking at the specific things Ven Fultan Sheen lists out as what the anti church and ape of the church will have and look like, it very much looks like the church of today. I am still in the R&R faction, but this shook it alot to be honest.

Pretty sure they are true:

"Orthodoxy is not so much a matter of the head. It is something living, and it's of the heart." --Bl. Seraphim of Platina

"Beauty will save the world." --Fyodor Dostoevsky

"You shall know the truth, and it will make you odd." --Flannery O'Connor
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