Ape of the Church?
#21
(04-23-2021, 03:20 AM)PilgrimMichelangelo Wrote:
(04-22-2021, 04:32 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: My biggest thing though, is if these quotes are true (and so far not seeing anything that says they aren't), then looking at the church today, its hard to argue that the ape of the church is here, no? Looking at the specific things Ven Fultan Sheen lists out as what the anti church and ape of the church will have and look like, it very much looks like the church of today. I am still in the R&R faction, but this shook it alot to be honest.

Pretty sure they are true:


Its interesting how he said that there will not be "absolutes" but instead and "indifference to absolutes." 

And now we have the Pope saying that the 10 COMMANDMENTS are not "absolutes." 

The 10 COMMANDMENTS!

https://www.italy24news.com/News/163410.html

What the heck? This is heresy! I cannot with the cognitive dissonance anymore!

Please someone explain to me how this man can possibly be the Pope of our beautiful Catholic and Apostolic Church! God help us!
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#22
(08-21-2021, 01:26 PM)Fortunabeargirl Wrote:
(04-23-2021, 03:20 AM)PilgrimMichelangelo Wrote:
(04-22-2021, 04:32 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: My biggest thing though, is if these quotes are true (and so far not seeing anything that says they aren't), then looking at the church today, its hard to argue that the ape of the church is here, no? Looking at the specific things Ven Fultan Sheen lists out as what the anti church and ape of the church will have and look like, it very much looks like the church of today. I am still in the R&R faction, but this shook it alot to be honest.

Pretty sure they are true:


Its interesting how he said that there will not be "absolutes" but instead and "indifference to absolutes." 

And now we have the Pope saying that the 10 COMMANDMENTS are not "absolutes." 

The 10 COMMANDMENTS!

https://www.italy24news.com/News/163410.html

What the heck? This is heresy! I cannot with the cognitive dissonance anymore!

Please someone explain to me how this man can possibly be the Pope of our beautiful Catholic and Apostolic Church! God help us!

No comments? I am really struggling with this. :(
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#23
Read what he said. Take off the media spin and there is nothing heretical, or even objectionable, with this. The money quote is at the very bottom.


Pope Francis: the commandments are not absolutePope Francis: the commandments are not absolute
VATICAN CITY. “How do I live? In fear that if I don’t do this I’ll go to hell? Or do I also live with that hope, with that joy of the gratuitousness of salvation in Jesus Christ? “: With this question Pope Francis exemplified the role of the ten commandments, which must be observed but are not” absolute “, because their” limited function in the time »is linked to« the maturation of persons and their choice of freedom »which culminates in the encounter with Jesus« who justifies us freely ».

Jorge Mario Bergoglio presided over the general audience in the Paul VI hall, continuing a cycle of catechesis dedicated to the relevance of the letter of St. Paul to the Galatians. If in recent weeks he had focused on those who criticized the apostle to the peoples – the missionaries who accused him of being “unorthodox towards tradition”, the “fundamentalist” preachers – today Francis has focused on the Mosaic law: Christians “They are not under the constraint of the Law, but are called to a demanding lifestyle in the freedom of the Gospel”.

The relationship between the Law and sin, the Pope explained, “will be expounded in a more systematic way by the Apostle in his Letter to the Romans, written a few years after that to the Galatians. In summary, the Law leads to a definition of transgression and to making people aware of their sin: “You have done this, therefore the Law – the Ten Commandments – says this: you are in sin”. Indeed, as common experience teaches, the precept ends up stimulating transgression ».

In the letter to the Galatians, St. Paul underlines the pedagogical role of the law: “In the school system of antiquity – he pointed out – the pedagogue did not have the function that we attribute to him today, namely that of supporting the education of a child or of a girl. At the time, it was instead a slave who had the task of accompanying the master’s son to the master and then bringing him back home. Thus he had to protect him from dangers, monitor him so that he did not behave incorrectly. Its function was rather disciplinary. When the boy became an adult, the pedagogue ceased from his duties ».



And therefore the Law “certainly had restrictive functions, but at the same time it had protected the people, educated, disciplined and supported them in their weakness, above all protection from paganism; there were many pagan attitudes in those times », he had« had a positive function – therefore as a pedagogue in carrying on -, but it is a function limited in time. Its duration cannot be extended beyond measure, because it is linked to the maturation of people and their choice of freedom. Once faith is reached, the Law exhausts its propaedeutic value and must give way to another authority. What does this mean? When the Law is over we can say: “Do we believe in Jesus Christ and do what we want?” No! The Commandments – Bergoglio pointed out – exist, but they do not justify us. What justifies us is Jesus Christ. The Commandments must be observed, but they do not give us justice; there is the gratuitousness of Jesus Christ, the encounter with Jesus Christ which justifies us gratuitously. The merit of faith is to receive Jesus. The only merit: to open the heart. And what do we do with the Commandments? We must observe them, but as an aid to the encounter with Jesus Christ. This teaching on the value of the law is very important and deserves to be considered carefully so as not to fall into misunderstandings and make false steps. It will do us good to ask ourselves – the Pope concluded – if we are still living in the period in which we need the Law, or if instead we are well aware of having received the grace of having become children of God to live in love. How do I live? In fear that if I don’t do this I’ll go to hell? Or do I also live with that hope, with that joy of the gratuitousness of salvation in Jesus Christ? That’s a good question. And also the second: do I despise the Commandments? No. I observe them, but not as absolute, because I know that what justifies me is Jesus Christ ».
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#24
(08-24-2021, 12:35 AM)ZeroM Wrote: Read what he said.  Take off the media spin and there is nothing heretical, or even objectionable, with this.  The money quote is at the very bottom. 


Pope Francis: the commandments are not absolutePope Francis: the commandments are not absolute
VATICAN CITY. “How do I live? In fear that if I don’t do this I’ll go to hell? Or do I also live with that hope, with that joy of the gratuitousness of salvation in Jesus Christ? “: With this question Pope Francis exemplified the role of the ten commandments, which must be observed but are not” absolute “, because their” limited function in the time »is linked to« the maturation of persons and their choice of freedom »which culminates in the encounter with Jesus« who justifies us freely ».

Jorge Mario Bergoglio presided over the general audience in the Paul VI hall, continuing a cycle of catechesis dedicated to the relevance of the letter of St. Paul to the Galatians. If in recent weeks he had focused on those who criticized the apostle to the peoples – the missionaries who accused him of being “unorthodox towards tradition”, the “fundamentalist” preachers – today Francis has focused on the Mosaic law: Christians “They are not under the constraint of the Law, but are called to a demanding lifestyle in the freedom of the Gospel”.

The relationship between the Law and sin, the Pope explained, “will be expounded in a more systematic way by the Apostle in his Letter to the Romans, written a few years after that to the Galatians. In summary, the Law leads to a definition of transgression and to making people aware of their sin: “You have done this, therefore the Law – the Ten Commandments – says this: you are in sin”. Indeed, as common experience teaches, the precept ends up stimulating transgression ».

In the letter to the Galatians, St. Paul underlines the pedagogical role of the law: “In the school system of antiquity – he pointed out – the pedagogue did not have the function that we attribute to him today, namely that of supporting the education of a child or of a girl. At the time, it was instead a slave who had the task of accompanying the master’s son to the master and then bringing him back home. Thus he had to protect him from dangers, monitor him so that he did not behave incorrectly. Its function was rather disciplinary. When the boy became an adult, the pedagogue ceased from his duties ».



And therefore the Law “certainly had restrictive functions, but at the same time it had protected the people, educated, disciplined and supported them in their weakness, above all protection from paganism; there were many pagan attitudes in those times », he had« had a positive function – therefore as a pedagogue in carrying on -, but it is a function limited in time. Its duration cannot be extended beyond measure, because it is linked to the maturation of people and their choice of freedom. Once faith is reached, the Law exhausts its propaedeutic value and must give way to another authority. What does this mean? When the Law is over we can say: “Do we believe in Jesus Christ and do what we want?” No! The Commandments – Bergoglio pointed out – exist, but they do not justify us. What justifies us is Jesus Christ. The Commandments must be observed, but they do not give us justice; there is the gratuitousness of Jesus Christ, the encounter with Jesus Christ which justifies us gratuitously. The merit of faith is to receive Jesus. The only merit: to open the heart. And what do we do with the Commandments? We must observe them, but as an aid to the encounter with Jesus Christ. This teaching on the value of the law is very important and deserves to be considered carefully so as not to fall into misunderstandings and make false steps. It will do us good to ask ourselves – the Pope concluded – if we are still living in the period in which we need the Law, or if instead we are well aware of having received the grace of having become children of God to live in love. How do I live? In fear that if I don’t do this I’ll go to hell? Or do I also live with that hope, with that joy of the gratuitousness of salvation in Jesus Christ? That’s a good question. And also the second: do I despise the Commandments? No. I observe them, but not as absolute, because I know that what justifies me is Jesus Christ ».

I know what he said.

I am familiar with the protestant teaching about being justified through faith and not works.

I thought after he finished expounding the protestant position that he would end it in a Catholic way with the necessity of works being a fruit of our faith and without them our faith being dead. 

But as you said, "the last statement is the money quote." And in that statement when referring to the 10 Commandments (which guide our ACTIONS,) he made sure to emphasize that the 10 Commandments are NOT absolute. So what are they then? Suggestions?

I've actually cried over this. The 10 COMMANDMENTS, given to us directly by God, and even written in stone are NOT absolute? If they are not absolute, then tell me what is?

The answer is NOTHING. Moral Relativism is a heresy.

I am really struggling and I dont understand how here, on  a Traditional Catholic forum, that there is not an outrage against this (to me) obvious heresy bc I havent seen anything about it here. Maybe I missed it? Or am I wrong and the 10 Commandments really arent absolutes, like our Holy Father says. 

If anyone can provide a different definition for absolute or somehow help me out of this because for some reason, as much as I have talked myself out of the possibility that this man is an enemy of God, I cannot work my way out of this one and it HURTS. :(
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#25
But we are but mere laypeople, and not in the position of judging our superior the pope.  That being said, we can judge statements.  Trent clearly and infallibly teaches no one is exempt from the observance of the ten commandments.  See Trent, Sixth Session, First Decree, Chapter XI, “On keeping the commandments, and on the necessity and possibility thereof.”  Console yourself with the rich and solid infallible teachings of our Magisterium in Tradition, and pray for the Holy Father in his time of need.  But let’s remember who we are, and not presume to be in the position to judge him.
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#26
Thank you!! Your direction to ... "See Trent, Sixth Session, First Decree, Chapter XI, 'On keeping the commandments, and on the necessity and possibility thereof' " ... did indeed provide a healing balm to my wounded heart and brings me great consolation!

But, without judging him and instead looking towards correctness within my self, who do I follow then? Him or the Infallible teaching of the Church that precedes him? It simply cannot be both bc the teachings are in opposition to eachother.

Am I to ignore this Pope and recognize that his teachings are in opposition to our One, Holy, and Apostolic Church?

What of those that do not recognize error and believe what this Pope preaches to be true? What if they base their actions on this belief and sin bc of it, bc if there are no absolutes, then the identification of sin becomes becomes quite difficult!

Are we now to tell our children that adherance to the teachings of the Church AND to the teachings of our current pope are two different things but somehow they should adhere to both, thereby imposing this spiritual unhealthy cognitive dissonance on them as well? How can I reconcile that to Jesus promise that the "gates of Hell shall not prevail?" They look to me for guidance and I am at a loss how to explain this to them, when I myself am stuck between two opposing elements?

Has there been a situation like this in our Church that I can look to for example?

After Pachamama, among other things, and now this, I cannot "honestly" profess fidelity to this man who himself seems to despise the very Church he leads. If I did so, I would be lying bc my lips would be in opposition to my heart.

May it please God to transform my heart and/or my lips, that they may express His truth which cannot be in opposition to Himself.
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#27
(04-23-2021, 03:20 AM)PilgrimMichelangelo Wrote:
(04-22-2021, 04:32 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: My biggest thing though, is if these quotes are true (and so far not seeing anything that says they aren't), then looking at the church today, its hard to argue that the ape of the church is here, no? Looking at the specific things Ven Fultan Sheen lists out as what the anti church and ape of the church will have and look like, it very much looks like the church of today. I am still in the R&R faction, but this shook it alot to be honest.

Pretty sure they are true:



This is an important recording which has opened many eyes (mine included) as to what has taken place. The problem is, that few have heard it and sadly the audio quality and style of delivery lead to many people turning off from the message and retreating from consideration as to what was said, when they are presented with it. I do think that cleaning it up by utilizing modern audio digital technology and further circulation on a variety of platforms would produce wonderful results. It simply requires someone with the wherewithal and good will to bring this about. 
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#28
(08-24-2021, 06:09 PM)Fortunabeargirl Wrote: I am really struggling and I dont understand how here, on  a Traditional Catholic forum, that there is not an outrage against this (to me) obvious heresy bc I havent seen anything about it here. Maybe I missed it? Or am I wrong and the 10 Commandments really arent absolutes, like our Holy Father says. 

If anyone can provide a different definition for absolute or somehow help me out of this because for some reason, as much as I have talked myself out of the possibility that this man is an enemy of God, I cannot work my way out of this one and it HURTS. :(
I wish I could help. 
The submissiveness to this pontificate is the biggest struggle I have with Catholicism. Francis is straight up evil, and you don’t have to be remotely Catholic to see it. His shilling for the atrocities of globalism alone is enough. His one-sided lust for mass migration has led to how many murders and rapes? 

That Catholics are required to accept the lies of Francis is the biggest obstacle for me seeing the Roman Church as the Universal Church. 

A lot of Catholics just want to turn their brains off, and let the system do their thinking for them. That’s extremely unwise in 2021, with every major, Western institution being more or less converged. 

BUT-

He will not be there forever, and sooner or later, an orthodox Supreme Pontiff will emerge, if only due to the conciliar church fading away. 
I don’t want to give up before Round 2. 

I’ve thought that maybe God has put him in power for a reason, that maybe we were a bit too ultramontanist, relying on the Holy See too much, and growing lazy. Maybe Francis’ agenda has created the need for a deeper understanding of the Faith? All speculation on my part obviously. God always rules with a purpose, even if it’s impossible to discern, which it always is for me.


Sooner or later, the True, the Good, and the Beautiful will triumph, though. We are assured of this.
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#29
(10-01-2021, 02:59 PM)TheGhostlyOne Wrote: That Catholics are required to accept the lies of Francis is the biggest obstacle for me seeing the Roman Church as the Universal Church. 

??? No Catholic is required to accept anything that Francis says unless he speaks
Quote:EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church' (Pastor Aeternus, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ, Chapter 4: On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, Paragraph 9)
which he has never once done during his entire Pontificate.

In fact, any Catholic with a conscience well-formed in the sensus fidelium not only is not 'required' to accept his attempts at changing the doctrine and Constitution of the Church, he has a duty to resist!
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#30
Being required to accept lies of a heretical Pope is news to me!
Daily Rosary pray,
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Until the day I pass.

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