R&R discussion
#19
(04-28-2021, 04:49 PM)Marmot Wrote: This is my personal view:
It would be a disorder if we were to prefer our personal opinion to what the Pope says. However, the things you mentioned are not mere opinions, they are matters that were settled long before we were born, often even explicitly in Sacred Scripture, or in the canons of Ecumenical Councils.

We don't have the right to pick a favourite historical Pope or bishop and prefer his judgment to that of the Pope, simply because we think he was more virtuous. However, we do have a right to prefer a doctrine in a certain magisterial act to that of the current Pope, because of the higher character of this particular magisterial act, compared to that of the current Pope.

Very true on them no being just an opinion. I use that term though based on the writings im finding that the pope can not err in teaching faith and morals. Thus the issue we run into with Pope Francis. If the Tradition is that the pope can't err in faith and mroals, not just ex cathedra, but also teaching it, then that means the sitting pope can't err in teaching on faith and morals. Pope Francis comes along, and it can be reasoned that he has erred in teaching faith and morals, as in reception of the Eucharist (Faith), capitol punishment (Morals), amazon synod (Faith and morals), etc. Thus my confusion.

If I hold to Tradition, then I have to agree that the pope can't err in faith and morals. Pope Leo and others even write that the pope is above that of councils, thus even they can't be used to judge him. I then have to hold that God will protect the church from a pope that teaches bad faith and morals. I then have to conclude one of a couple things. Either A), Tradition is wrong, which then makes all other aspects of the faith up for grabs, B) God is protecting the church and its just my opinion and I am wrong, vs the pope, or C) Francis is not the legit pope and thus that protection is not guaranteed.

Thus my problem. I have found many writings now from the Early Church Fathers, all the way to Pope Leo saying that the pope can NOT err in teaching faith and morals. This extends beyond that of ex cathedra. I have found no writings so far from popes, Dr's of the Church, etc, that state that the pope is able to err in teaching faith and morals, and the laity are able to decide on their own when he does and dosent by utilizing the treasure of the faith. Basically, I can't find any pope or authoritative teaching in the church that backs the R&R stance, but have found a bunch of teachings that back the stance that the pope can't err in what I and others in R&R state he is erring in, thus seeming to put myself on the wrong side of Tradition by having the R&R stance.
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Messages In This Thread
R&R discussion - by Sword of St. Michael - 04-28-2021, 10:48 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-28-2021, 11:21 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Bataar - 04-28-2021, 02:43 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Adventus - 04-28-2021, 04:20 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-28-2021, 04:41 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 05:06 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-28-2021, 05:28 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Adventus - 04-28-2021, 05:41 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Marmot - 04-28-2021, 04:49 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Sword of St. Michael - 04-29-2021, 10:30 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Marmot - 04-29-2021, 11:33 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Sword of St. Michael - 04-29-2021, 03:36 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Marmot - 04-29-2021, 04:26 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 07:09 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-28-2021, 08:00 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 07:21 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 10:37 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-29-2021, 08:01 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 10:47 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by lukeg03 - 04-29-2021, 01:55 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Justin Tertius - 04-29-2021, 02:00 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by jovan66102 - 04-29-2021, 02:04 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Bataar - 04-29-2021, 11:26 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Marmot - 04-29-2021, 11:54 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Adventus - 04-29-2021, 02:01 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-29-2021, 11:26 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by jovan66102 - 04-29-2021, 04:35 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-29-2021, 04:50 PM



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