R&R discussion
#25
(04-29-2021, 11:33 AM)Marmot Wrote:
(04-29-2021, 10:30 AM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: Very true on them no being just an opinion. I use that term though based on the writings im finding that the pope can not err in teaching faith and morals.
What exactly are you reading? The Pope can err in teaching faith and morals, except for what belongs to the Ordinary Universal Magisterium and the Extraordinary Magisterium. Most of what the Pope says and writes belongs to neither of these.
Quote:Thus the issue we run into with Pope Francis. If the Tradition is that the pope can't err in faith and mroals, not just ex cathedra, but also teaching it, then that means the sitting pope can't err in teaching on faith and morals. Pope Francis comes along, and it can be reasoned that he has erred in teaching faith and morals, as in reception of the Eucharist (Faith), capitol punishment (Morals), amazon synod (Faith and morals), etc. Thus my confusion.

If I hold to Tradition, then I have to agree that the pope can't err in faith and morals. Pope Leo and others even write that the pope is above that of councils, thus even they can't be used to judge him.
Not quite. The Pope is not "above" an Ecumenical Council. An Ecumenical Council (with the approbation of the Pope) and the Pope alone are capable of teaching with the very highest level of theological certainty. The one is not greater in authority than the other.
Quote:I then have to hold that God will protect the church from a pope that teaches bad faith and morals. I then have to conclude one of a couple things. Either A), Tradition is wrong, which then makes all other aspects of the faith up for grabs, B) God is protecting the church and its just my opinion and I am wrong, vs the pope, or C) Francis is not the legit pope and thus that protection is not guaranteed.

Thus my problem. I have found many writings now from the Early Church Fathers, all the way to Pope Leo saying that the pope can NOT err in teaching faith and morals. This extends beyond that of ex cathedra. I have found no writings so far from popes, Dr's of the Church, etc, that state that the pope is able to err in teaching faith and morals, and the laity are able to decide on their own when he does and dosent by utilizing the treasure of the faith. Basically, I can't find any pope or authoritative teaching in the church that backs the R&R stance, but have found a bunch of teachings that back the stance that the pope can't err in what I and others in R&R state he is erring in, thus seeming to put myself on the wrong side of Tradition by having the R&R stance.
It is not that "Tradition is wrong", but that your understanding of Tradition is wrong.

It is well known that John XXII taught a serious theological error while he was Pope, a teaching that today we would call a heresy. Yet nobody pretends he was an antipope.

I think what is missing from your analysis is that there are several different degrees of authority when the Pope speaks. There are not just the two cases "ex cathedra or not ex cathedra". Within "not ex cathedra", there is infallible Universal Ordinary Magisterium, there is non-infallible Ordinary Magisterium, and there is the Pope as a private theologian or a private individual. Without these distinctions, you end up with a simplistic analysis, and that's how a garage pope is created.


Thank you, that does clear some things up for me. My biggest error was in thinking that the teaching of the pope was equal to teaching of the church, where since the pope is the visible head, the leader of the church, what he says is the teaching of the church in a sense. Christ is the ultimate head, but the pope is the visible head.

Thus, with that idea, quotes like this:
“Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?” (Letters 59 [55], 14). St Cyprian of Carthage

and:

"Hence it is that in this proper object of her mission, that is, “in faith and morals, God Himself has made the Church sharer in the divine magisterium and, by a special privilege, granted her immunity from error; hence she is the mistress of men, supreme and absolutely sure, and she has inherent in herself an inviolable right to freedom in teaching.’…

- Pope Pius XI, "Divini Illius Magistri" para. 18

Come across where the pope can't error in faith and morals. That does help alot in understanding things better, I appreciate it


If you dont mind, since you mentioned it, I had always thought that a pope was above a council. A pope can nulify a council, not vice versa, and a council can not be used against a pope as no man can judge the pope. No bishop or groups of bishops can judge a pope. Councils are made up of groups of bishops. Thus a council can't judge a pope. A pope can though.

Thus, my thinking has always been the pope is above that of a council. They do share in their ability to be infalliable, but the pope gets his infalliability straight from God under strict sanctions, where the council gets it due to their connection to the pope. A council then can only be infalliable if the pope gives it the authority to do so, thus making the pope the giver of that authority. Thus, the pope is greater then a council since he holds the keys and can bind/loose, where a council only can if he the pope approves of it, he can nulify the acts of a council on his own, where as a council can't unless the current pope approves of it and thus its through his authority not theirs that the act is done.
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Messages In This Thread
R&R discussion - by Sword of St. Michael - 04-28-2021, 10:48 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-28-2021, 11:21 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Bataar - 04-28-2021, 02:43 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Adventus - 04-28-2021, 04:20 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-28-2021, 04:41 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 05:06 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-28-2021, 05:28 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Adventus - 04-28-2021, 05:41 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Marmot - 04-28-2021, 04:49 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Sword of St. Michael - 04-29-2021, 10:30 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Marmot - 04-29-2021, 11:33 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Sword of St. Michael - 04-29-2021, 03:36 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Marmot - 04-29-2021, 04:26 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 07:09 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-28-2021, 08:00 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 07:21 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 10:37 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-29-2021, 08:01 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-28-2021, 10:47 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by lukeg03 - 04-29-2021, 01:55 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Justin Tertius - 04-29-2021, 02:00 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by jovan66102 - 04-29-2021, 02:04 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Bataar - 04-29-2021, 11:26 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Marmot - 04-29-2021, 11:54 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by Adventus - 04-29-2021, 02:01 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by MacPasquale - 04-29-2021, 11:26 AM
RE: R&R discussion - by jovan66102 - 04-29-2021, 04:35 PM
RE: R&R discussion - by Memories_in_Rain - 04-29-2021, 04:50 PM



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