Objections to Sedevacantism?
#11
My main problem with sedevacantism and sedeprivationism(which at least tries to address it) is the visibility issue.

If it was simply an issue of an empty chair in Rome I would have as much of an issue.


To sedeplenists:

If you have to resort to simple accusations of schism you're going to make it look like there aren't any real objections to sv/sp.  They don't think the recent popes are popes, saying their refusal to summit to the Roman Pontif isn't going to convince them.
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#12
It is the Church that warns of schism; I am merely conveying its warning.  Those schismatics who are not hard-hearted and receive the necessary grace can be prompted by the warning of schism to return to the Church.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
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#13
If we are in the Great Apostasy and the Church has abandoned the faith, wouldn't it mean that we are in the End Times? How is it that Antichrist hasn't arrived yet? More than 60 years have passed.
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#14
(05-03-2021, 08:39 AM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote: Hi everyone, hope you’re all well. As you know, I’m one of the very very few public Sedevacantists here, specifically a Sedeprivationist. So I wanted to ask, what are your objections to Sedevacantism in general and Sedeprivationism specifically? I am not going to debate you, I promise. I will not even respond with an objection to an objection. 

What I am doing is trying to engage in an honest and intellectual testing of my position. I have 2 years before I enter either the SSPX, ICKSP, or RCI (Bishop Sanborn’s organization) seminary. Thus in these 2 years I want to be completely sure of my position, completely sure of defending it and having it as the rock I’m on.

I’m very thankful for whatever you list down, I will be creating a list of all of the objections. If I cannot face them with all the research and help from the Sede side, then I will honestly submit and return to the post-Conciliar church.

Thanks, 

Noah
The position of Manifest Heresy vs. error is my biggest. There is a distinction that the Church makes between heresy and error. One can hold an erroneous or heretical position and yet neither be manifest nor occult heretick. This is determined by the extent to which the one in error knows he is in error, the extent to which he has attempted to influence people to his error, and the extent to which he has been reproved. Because people nowadays confuse reprovement with judgment, there exists a train of thought, rightly critiqued to an extreme in sedevacantism, that a Pope cannot be reproved. Which is false and refuted by St. Paul's reproval of St. Peter.
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#15
(05-04-2021, 09:59 AM)Clare Brigid Wrote: It is the Church that warns of schism; I am merely conveying its warning.  Those schismatics who are not hard-hearted and receive the necessary grace can be prompted by the warning of schism to return to the Church.
And yet the Sedevacantists can charge you with schism too.
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#16
They can assert any absurd thing.  They are practiced at that.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
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#17
(05-04-2021, 12:05 PM)Drolo Wrote: If we are in the Great Apostasy and the Church has abandoned the faith, wouldn't it mean that we are in the End Times? How is it that Antichrist hasn't arrived yet? More than 60 years have passed.

We're NOT in the prophesied Great Apostasy. Why not?

The Consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary hasn't happened yet.

The rise of the Great Monarch in France and the last Pope hasn't occurred yet.

The return of Enoch and Elias from Paradise and their preaching hasn't happened yet.

The mass conversion of our Jewish neighbors to Christ and the Church hasn't happened yet.

Hence the arrival of the Antichrist hasn't happened yet.

As for the Last Times happening, we've been in the Last Times since Christ ascended into Heaven. Yes, it has been twenty centuries but it is still the Last Times.

So let's not make the same trend of mistakes and goof-ups that our Protestant neighbors have done from too many decades. That is guessing who is or isn't the Antichrist, or what does or doesn't the numbers 666 apply to and so on. Too many have tried and failed and made fools of themselves. Don't do what they've done, please.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." - G. K. Chesterton
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#18
I've heard it said that we may still be in the early Church.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
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#19
(05-04-2021, 05:12 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: I've heard it said that we may still be in the early Church.

Boy that would make things interesting. We might get space Catholic countries. but then again the horrors of today wouldn't even compare to what awaits humanity later on.
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#20
(05-04-2021, 05:09 PM)HailGilbert Wrote: So let's not make the same trend of mistakes and goof-ups that our Protestant neighbors have done from too many decades. That is guessing who is or isn't the Antichrist, or what does or doesn't the numbers 666 apply to and so on. Too many have tried and failed and made fools of themselves. Don't do what they've done, please.

Let me tell you a story! Years ago (I was still Orthodox), I went to visit some friends in Colorado Springs. They were fundies and heavily into the End Times scenario. They had chosen not to bring children into the 'Tribulation', they were prepping, the whole nine yards.

They had been convinced by Hal Lindsey's 'The Late Great Planet Earth'. They gave me the book to read. I'm a fast reader and I read it before I fell asleep that night. I was convinced!! Using prophecies from the Book of Daniel about Gog and Magog, and from the Apocalypse, he had 'proved' beyond a shadow of a doubt that the next war Israel fought would be with the USSR and would be decided on the Field of Armageddon.

I went to sleep, planning on going back to KC and 
starting prepping. It was too late on the children bit since I was already a father, but I was convinced of the need to prepare for the 'Great Tribulation'.

The next morning I woke up and stumbled downstairs for my coffee. Laying on the kitchen table was the morning newspaper. A large headline across the top read ', 'Arab-Israeli War Breaks Out!!!'. It was the morning of 6 October 1973 and the Yom Kippur War had started.

At that point, I realised how stupid it was to try to second guess God the Father when God the Son had told us that no man knows the hour. 
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