Does the Novus Ordo church possess the Four Marks of the Church?
#11
(05-21-2021, 11:59 PM)Happy Boy Wrote: Of course it does.  What sort of ridiculous attention seeking question is this?  The question is the product of pride.  The "norvus ordo" church.  If this is not the Church, then Christ has lied.
How so? The Catholic church still exists. It's much smaller now and doesn't have a visible leader at the moment, but it exists and maintains the same teachings, doctrines, liturgy and tradition as it has for hundreds of years. There have been numerous prophecies from various mistakes stating Rome would lose the faith, that the true church would be eclipsed, etc. Even Jesus wondered if there would be enough faithful to stand under a single tree when he returns. Bishop Sanborn is a leader of the true church, as is Bishop Pivarunas (CMRI), Bishop Kelly (SSPV), Bishop Dolan, etc. Yes, they have disagreements amongst themselves on some issues, but their theology is the same. If the Novus Ordo church is the true Catholic Church, then the church has obviously defected from its mission which means Christ lied.
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#12
(05-22-2021, 12:09 AM)Bataar Wrote:
(05-21-2021, 11:59 PM)Happy Boy Wrote: Of course it does.  What sort of ridiculous attention seeking question is this?  The question is the product of pride.  The "norvus ordo" church.  If this is not the Church, then Christ has lied.
How so? The Catholic church still exists. It's much smaller now and doesn't have a visible leader at the moment, but it exists and maintains the same teachings, doctrines, liturgy and tradition as it has for hundreds of years. There have been numerous prophecies from various mistakes stating Rome would lose the faith, that the true church would be eclipsed, etc. Even Jesus wondered if there would be enough faithful to stand under a single tree when he returns. Bishop Sanborn is a leader of the true church, as is Bishop Pivarunas (CMRI), Bishop Kelly (SSPV), Bishop Dolan, etc. Yes, they have disagreements amongst themselves on some issues, but their theology is the same. If the Novus Ordo church is the true Catholic Church, then the church has obviously defected from its mission which means Christ lied.
I don't seem to be able to edit this post, but mistakes should be mystics. :)
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#13
I am uncertain what you think purpose of the Church is? Sisters and priests working in slums from St Louis to Paz to Johannesburg to Manila and all places inside. Have you seen poverty? The "true" Church does not exist as fantastical realm. What ridiculous prophecies do you refer? I think you are young person under 22. You need to grow up and "get real".

If you think the sacrifice Christ presents on the altar in Heaven matters as to the way the priest offers the sacrifice, for or against the people, then this is crazy. You have mistaken the rite for the actuality of a slain Christ offered bloody on the altar before his Father.

The "novus ordo" church is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

You need to grow up and think with your head.
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#14
(05-22-2021, 12:09 AM)Bataar Wrote: Bishop Sanborn is a leader of the true church, as is Bishop Pivarunas (CMRI), Bishop Kelly (SSPV), Bishop Dolan, etc.
How can anybody be said to be a leader of the Church without ever having received ordinary jurisdiction? Bishops Sanborn, Kelly and Dolan never had ordinary jurisdiction, even as simple priests. Bishop Pivarunas was ordained a priest and consecrated a bishop by bishops who themselves were never able to confer jurisdiction. Hence they cannot claim to exercise any authority in the Church. They have valid orders but that's it. Besides, they do not submit to any common principle of authority and cannot be said to form "one church" with each other. Adherents of one bishop (Sanborn) have even been barred from receiving Holy Communion at the chapel of another (Kelly).
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#15
Sanborn, Pivarunas, et al. are not leaders of the Church.  Rather, they are leaders of a tiny schism.  Tiny, but spiritually deadly for those who adhere to it.  You need to repent of your schism and return to communion with the Catholic Church.  Find a good traditional parish and make your home there.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
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#16
Bp. Sanborn, bp.Pivarunas, BP. Dolan don't even claim to be leaders in the Church(I'm not so sure about bp.kelly).

They would be the first to say they have no authority.
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#17
I misspoke. What I meant by saying they were leaders was that they maintained valid apostolic succession for the church.
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#18
Is the recent announcement concerning Father Altman another example of the disunity in the Church today?
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#19
(05-21-2021, 11:59 PM)Happy Boy Wrote: Of course it does.  What sort of ridiculous attention seeking question is this?  The question is the product of pride.  The "norvus ordo" church.  If this is not the Church, then Christ has lied.

You can look at the question differently without getting into the “If this is not the church Christ has Lied” line. Christ’s church is both human and divine.  Divine in its sacraments, in its dogmas, in its liturgy.  Human in its governance and in its members.  If as Pope Emeritus Benedict and Pope John Paul ll state, that Vatican ll is in full continuity with church tradition (questionable, but another argument) then all of the crisis we see with the church today can be attributed fully to its governance and its members.  So perhaps the question is not so ridiculous after all, because the term “Novus Ordo” church speaks far more to its human element than its divine element.  So where does the Novus Ordo church bear any resemblance to Christ’s divine church? 

Thankfully, God has graced us with traditional communities who adhere to the church’s liturgy, her dogmas, and confect valid sacraments to the faithful who are hanging on for dear life, as proof that Christ has not lied.  

“If my work is of God, he will guard it and use it for the good of the church.  Our lord has promised us, the gates of hell shall not prevail against her!” Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
"Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."  Matthew 9:10-14
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#20
(05-22-2021, 12:57 AM)Happy Boy Wrote: The "novus ordo" church is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. 
How is it one church when there is so much division on so many issues? It is less like one church today, and more like a divided church.
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