SSPX-MC, SSPV, CMRI and other Sede groups
#1
Can someone explain to me the differences between these groups and there respective histories? 

Where does the CMRI come from? The SSPV, RCI, the SSPX-Resistence.

I have mostly ignored these groups, but just got curious about what these people are out there doing.
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
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#2
(05-21-2021, 02:17 AM)Justin Tertius Wrote: Can someone explain to me the differences between these groups and there respective histories? 

Where does the CMRI come from? The SSPV, RCI, the SSPX-Resistence.

I have mostly ignored these groups, but just got curious about what these people are out there doing.

The bishops there have often been quite hostile towards tradition.  Traditional groups who are unwilling to obey them probably (understandably) fill a painful void.  Sometimes those groups can go down some odd theological rabbit holes though, so I would be careful.
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#3
There’s a lot to unpack there, but look up “The Nine” that left the SSPX in 1983. That will give you a good foundation of things that followed.
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#4
(05-21-2021, 04:41 AM)Credidi Propter Wrote: The bishops there have often been quite hostile towards tradition.  Traditional groups who are unwilling to obey them probably (understandably) fill a painful void.  Sometimes those groups can go down some odd theological rabbit holes though, so I would be careful.

This is pretty cryptic. Which bishops where and how have they been hostile to tradition. I am just wondering where things stand today.
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
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#5
CMRI - If you go on Novus Ordo Watch’s YouTube channel, there is a beautiful interview with a CMRI nun where she discusses the origin of the group and how she got involved (she was one of the first ones). It’s a very nice interview to sit down and listen to, the sister seems so nice I watched it twice. 

Another good article which discusses and defends the validity of the CMRI is this one: 

http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=26&catname=14

To find out about “The Nine” and how they resisted against Archbishop Lefebvre and later left the SSPX to make the SSPV (and later conflicts within the SSPV to form Most Holy Trinity Seminary and all of the Bishops and Priests in tie with that general group), I would suggest reading this article: 

http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/ar...febvre.pdf

As well there are the traditionalist controversies surrounding the valid Thuc Consecrations. The SSPV holds they were invalid while everyone else (in the Sede circles, that is) mainly holds they were valid. If you want to read up on that, I would suggest watching Father Cekada’s (a prayer for his soul, if you will please) debate with Fr. Jenkins. It’s on YouTube. As well you can read these articles:

http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=60&catname=13

Hope this helps :)
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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#6
This whole business with the Thuc Consecrations was one of the things that made me reconsider attending the sede Masses. It just becomes incoherent, with priests arguing Canon Law, one against the other. So, who are we supposed to listen to? Whoever we find the most compelling? What if we find the SSPV’s argument to be the most personally convincing? Ironically, it almost sounds modernist, viz. determining for oneself what constitutes the truth. Now, mind you, I also see the obvious problem that there are plenty of heretic priests and religious in the post-conciliar Church. I don’t have an easy answer to any of it, but, to me, it would seem going into schism with the visible Church is not the answer. It was never the right answer before, so I don’t see how it’s the right answer now.
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#7
The interview with the CMRI nun might be beautiful, but the history of the CMRI isn't so lovely.  Its founder, Francis Schuckardt, was ordained a priest and consecrated bishop by an Old Catholic bishop who had come over to sedevacantism.  Several decades later, Schuckardt was expelled from CMRI because of homosexual sexual abuse.

As I said, not so lovely.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
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#8
(05-21-2021, 05:55 PM)FultonFan Wrote: This whole business with the Thuc Consecrations was one of the things that made me reconsider attending the sede Masses. It just becomes incoherent, with priests arguing Canon Law, one against the other. So, who are we supposed to listen to? Whoever we find the most compelling? What if we find the SSPV’s argument to be the most personally convincing? Ironically, it almost sounds modernist, viz. determining for oneself what constitutes the truth. Now, mind you, I also see the obvious problem that there are plenty of heretic priests and religious in the post-conciliar Church. I don’t have an easy answer to any of it, but, to me, it would seem going into schism with the visible Church is not the answer. It was never the right answer before, so I don’t see how it’s the right answer now.
But that could occur with the consecrations of any Bishop? There could be arguments on either side of any consecration, but the Thuc ones are just more in the spotlight because of the fact that they’re all Sedes. The arguments of Fr. Cekada and the rest are the most convincing because to deny them would be foolish. It doesn’t matter about personal conviction, or else we might as well start saying that the Jews are justified in their interpretation of the Old Testament and not seeing Jesus in it because of personal beliefs. 

Oh wait... Ratzinger already said that... oops...

The “visible” church is one which I believe many of us agree, as we are on a traditional forum, has done the opposite of what the Church should do: save souls. To flee from heretics is no sin, and to flee from the damnation of souls is no sin either.
“Take my advice and live for a long, long time. Because the maddest thing a man can do in this life is to let himself die.” 

“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams — this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness — and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” 

- Don Quixote
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#9
(05-21-2021, 07:28 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote:
(05-21-2021, 05:55 PM)FultonFan Wrote: ... I don’t have an easy answer to any of it, but, to me, it would seem going into schism with the visible Church is not the answer. It was never the right answer before, so I don’t see how it’s the right answer now.
But that could occur with the consecrations of any Bishop? There could be arguments on either side of any consecration, but the Thuc ones are just more in the spotlight because of the fact that they’re all Sedes. The arguments of Fr. Cekada and the rest are the most convincing because to deny them would be foolish. It doesn’t matter about personal conviction, or else we might as well start saying that the Jews are justified in their interpretation of the Old Testament and not seeing Jesus in it because of personal beliefs. 

Oh wait... Ratzinger already said that... oops...

The “visiblechurch is one which I believe many of us agree, as we are on a traditional forum, has done the opposite of what the Church should do: save souls. To flee from heretics is no sin, and to flee from the damnation of souls is no sin either.

Thank you Memories for the links. I'll have to look into them when I can get the chance.

1. What are you talking about, saying that Pope Benedict said what you accuse him of? Where did he say this?
2. If the visible Church has failed in its mission, then why are you still Catholic?
"Especially will I do this if the Lord make known to me that you come together man by man in common through grace, individually, in one faith, and in Jesus Christ... so that you obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but which causes that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ." St. Ignatius of Antioch

"But Polycarp... waving his hand towards them, while with groans he look up to heaven, said, 'Away with the Atheists.'" Martyrdom of Polycarp
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#10
(05-21-2021, 07:28 PM)Memories_in_Rain Wrote: To flee from heretics is no sin, and to flee from the damnation of souls is no sin either.
Of course not. But this is the same pretext that has ever been used by schismatics. This article (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13529a.htm) was written in 1912. Excerpt:

Catholic Encyclopedia on Schism Wrote:Various motives have been brought forward in justification of Schism:

(1) Some have claimed the introduction into the Church of abuses, dogmatic and liturgical novelties, superstitions, with which they are permitted, even bound, not to ally themselves. Without entering into the foundation for these charges it should be noted that the authors cited above do not mention or admit a single exception. If we accept their statements separation from the Church is necessarily an evil, an injurious and blameworthy act, and abandoning of the true way of salvation, and this independent of all contingent circumstances. Moreover the doctrines of the Fathers exclude a priori any such attempt at justification; to use their words, it is forbidden for individuals or particular or national Churches to constitute themselves judges of the universal Church; the mere fact of having it against one carries its own condemnation. St. Augustine summed up all his controversy with the Donatists in the maxim: "The whole world unhesitatingly declares them wrong who separate themselves from the whole world in whatsoever portion of the whole world" (quapropter securus judicat orbis terrarum bonos non esse qui se dividunt ab orbe terrarum, in quacumque parte orbis terrarum).

It has justly been said that a sedevacantist is a person who loves his mental image of the Church as he would wish it were, rather that the Church of reality which "has its roots in Heaven, but its leaves in the tempest".
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