What are conservative Novus Ordo Catholics?
#31
(07-19-2021, 11:49 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 11:42 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: This "Jew-trad" excursus might be the most delightful off-topic bit that I've seen in a while.

Don't you know Jew-trads don't eat shellfish on Fridays!

ROTFL!!!
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#32
(07-19-2021, 11:31 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 11:11 PM)muffinman145 Wrote: Not calling you names. It's just obvious to everyone how you and others put the Pope on some unrealistic pedestal and then inevitably get into sedevacantists or just become delusional Pope apologists doing mental gymnastics to defend Pope Francis. Good luck raising kids in the NO and keeping them Catholic. Go ahead and send them to a diocesan school where Protestants will teach them theology. At least they won't turn out to be miserable jew-trads.

Again this is laughable considering what my position was regarding the Pope over the years...but hey I guess when you speak heresy and defend the evil, modernist, hippie Pope...you suddenly become a persona non grata and ipso fact Protestant.

I get it...I'm a heretic in the eyes of the "trads" whatever I care about as much as St Augustine cared when all the Donatists were naysaying him for being someone delusional because he didn't buy into their nonsense.


Again the attitude on here just keeps re-enforcing Pope Francis' point in his letter.

I think maybe this is the "problem" people are noticing and why you are getting the pushback.  For all those years you reference you were 100% sure and absolutely confident of your position and defended it to the death. You have now seemingly done an instantaneous 180 but again are 100% sure and absolutely confident of your position.  You have made it clear you don't care what "trads" (of which you were one until recently apparently) think but maybe a little caution would be helpful when expressing your newfound viewpoints.  If you think your old way of thinking was wrong don't you have any pause on your new way of thinking before going all in, scorched earth like?
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#33
(07-19-2021, 11:48 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 11:39 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 11:36 PM)muffinman145 Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 11:31 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Again the attitude on here just keeps re-enforcing Pope Francis' point in his letter.
Well you and Pope Francis sure have your priorities straight. Once the trads get in line the Church will be A-OK
Oy vey!

Yep...my sentiments exactly.


Hey muffinman... You think Francis is bad, just wait until you meet his successor I'm betting he's going to be a real doozy!
Not sure what you're getting at. I guess you're trying to be funny? Mockery isn't very becoming.
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#34
(07-20-2021, 12:00 AM)muffinman145 Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 11:48 PM)austenbosten Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 11:39 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 11:36 PM)muffinman145 Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 11:31 PM)austenbosten Wrote: Again the attitude on here just keeps re-enforcing Pope Francis' point in his letter.
Well you and Pope Francis sure have your priorities straight. Once the trads get in line the Church will be A-OK
Oy vey!

Yep...my sentiments exactly.


Hey muffinman... You think Francis is bad, just wait until you meet his successor I'm betting he's going to be a real doozy!
Not sure what you're getting at. I guess you're trying to be funny? Mockery isn't very becoming.

And sarcasm is? Pot...Kettle???
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#35
(07-19-2021, 11:54 PM)Bushum Wrote: I think maybe this is the "problem" people are noticing and why you are getting the pushback.  For all those years you reference you were 100% sure and absolutely confident of your position and defended it to the death. You have now seemingly done an instantaneous 180 but again are 100% sure and absolutely confident of your position.  You have made it clear you don't care what "trads" (of which you were one until recently apparently) think but maybe a little caution would be helpful when expressing your newfound viewpoints.  If you think your old way of thinking was wrong don't you have any pause on your new way of thinking before going all in, scorched earth like?

I have been contemplating this for awhile and people can see my thoughts were changing over time. I wavered on bordering on sedevacantism and dialed back. I still consider myself a "traditional Catholic" even if others on here wish to label me otherwise.

I'm fine with pushback but I'm not fond of being treated like I'm not someone who hasn't made the arguments I was getting.
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#36
(07-20-2021, 12:05 AM)austenbosten Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 11:54 PM)Bushum Wrote: I think maybe this is the "problem" people are noticing and why you are getting the pushback.  For all those years you reference you were 100% sure and absolutely confident of your position and defended it to the death. You have now seemingly done an instantaneous 180 but again are 100% sure and absolutely confident of your position.  You have made it clear you don't care what "trads" (of which you were one until recently apparently) think but maybe a little caution would be helpful when expressing your newfound viewpoints.  If you think your old way of thinking was wrong don't you have any pause on your new way of thinking before going all in, scorched earth like?

I have been contemplating this for awhile and people can see my thoughts were changing over time.  I wavered on bordering on sedevacantism and dialed back.  I still consider myself a "traditional Catholic" even if others on here wish to label me otherwise.

I'm fine with pushback but I'm not fond of being treated like I'm not someone who hasn't made the arguments I was getting.

I personally am not trying to label you anything I was just referencing the fact that you were saying "trad" as if it no longer applied to you.  Everyone is very heated at the moment so I don't want to make any rash judgements.
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#37
(07-20-2021, 12:31 AM)Bushum Wrote: I personally am not trying to label you anything I was just referencing the fact that you were saying "trad" as if it no longer applied to you.  Everyone is very heated at the moment so I don't want to make any rash judgements.

I appreciate that Bushum.

By trad (in the words of Bill Clinton) that depends on what your definition of trad is.

If you mean by "trad" as someone who upholds the Teachings of the Catholic Church and desires it to be steep in ancient tradition and customs and one who believes in what the Church has taught from the Apostles to now...I am a "trad"

If by "trad" it means to hate on the NOM and to ridicule bishops and the Pope and pick and choose when to submit and when to resist in matters that are not intrinsically evil...then I am not a "trad".
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#38
I have never liked the label traditionalist, perhaps analogously the same reason the postmodernists disliked being called such. It always is an oversimplification of the reality. As a sociological label, it is a useful shorthand, but when discussing the nitty gritty, it must be immediately dispensed with as an all too blunt instrument. The same applies to labels such as conservative or neocon Catholics.

The reason being that reality is always more complex than the names. Tradition—which tradition? Where? When? An example: immigrant parishes in America in the late 19th/early20th c—what head coverings did women wear? It depended on your social class, your ethnicity, etc. not everyone wore mantilla veils, which is really an innovation. The old Italian women in my (Novus Ordo) parish growing up always wore flamboyant hats. They were not conservatives, but when they were children, they saw that hats were worn by the middle and upper class. That desire to go up the socio-economic ladder, to live the American dream, to be fashionable, to fit in, these never left them even though they knew they didn’t need to cover their heads at Mass anymore. It was for sociological, not theological, reasons.

So when we say trad or neocon, we’re by definition using a broad brush stroke to describe a certain range of factors exhibited in this or that class. Useful for sociological purposes, not useful for thoughtful or human conversation. On the flip side, it does no good to pretend there are no useful definitions for these terms and redefine them along completely unobjectionable lines merely to combat the harsh tendencies of some overly zealous (let us say) folk. This already concedes ground in fact. I think it’s because in this polarized atmosphere, we are quickly forgetting how to have reasonable conversation, so we’re always self-consciously overcompensating for the exaggerated tendencies in our ideological opponents. We shouldn’t have to do that. It is the ideologues who must learn to temper themselves before they start talking with the adults.
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#39
(07-19-2021, 08:30 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: I've seen references made to conservative Novus Ordo Catholics.  How would you define this?  I think I know what this means, but I am interested in your thoughts.

Traditional Catholic:

From https://www.fisheaters.com/traditionalca...sm101.html


Quote:...[W]hat all traditional Catholics who fit the label have in common -- whether they are sedevacantist, whether they worship inside or outside of diocesan structures -- are:
  • the dogmas of the Faith understood in a manner consistent with the way Catholics had always understood them -- i.e., they reject the errors outlined above -- and an upholding of traditional Catholic moral theology

  • a desire to preserve and restore all of the ancient sacramental rites, and to do so not because these are "preferred," but because they are objectively superior to the new rites and should once again become normative

  • a deep understanding of or intuition about the importance of preserving not only instrinsic tradition (the unwritten Deposit of the Faith handed down by Christ and His Apostles), but also the ecclesiastical tradition (extrinsic tradition) which has served to preserve intrinsic tradition and allows parents and priests to pass it down in an effective way

  • a strong sensus Catholicus (Catholic "sense" or "instinct"), including a cautious, Catholic approach to novelty

A conservative Catholic is baptized, doesn't fit the description above, but has no intention to not submit to rightful teaching. They're usually not consciously Modernist or otherwise consciously heretical, but they embrace errors, usually because they tend to exaggerate the papacy (as do many sedevacantists), which leads to their accepting whatever novelty comes down the pike if it comes from a rightful authority. If a Pope says X, even while not exercising infallibility, they embrace X, even if Not X has been Church teaching for 2,000 years. They might call themselves "traditional" because they believe those attitudes are traditional (they're not). Some tend to have good hearts, but weak minds. Some might be Saints in the making because of their intentions,  willingness to submit to Truth, and desire to please God. But holy or not, their sacramental rites are inferior (not in terms of validity, but in terms of catechetical qualities, beauty, tradition, theological depth, ability to épater les Protestants - ha, etc.), and they're often wrong about the errors outlined in the Traditional Catholicism 101 page linked to above.

(Some might wonder if some trads have good minds but weak hearts. Yes, some do. That's what the Toxic Traddism and Conversion of the Heart pages are about. The goal of FE is to avoid both idiocy and assholery while preserving authentic Catholic teaching and practice that our great-grandparents would recognize.)
T h e   D u d e t t e   A b i d e s
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#40
(07-19-2021, 10:05 PM)austenbosten Wrote: While NO types in their polo shirts and slacks may look goofy with their orans position at Mass...they are at least joyful and at least have a love for Christ.

Do you mean the older generation whose kids and grandkids don't even attend Mass weekly?

Or do you mean the young adults who have 2-3 kids and then get a vasectomy in their early 30s?

Virtually all protestants are joyful and love Christ. Or at least they love the person they think He is.
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