What are conservative Novus Ordo Catholics?
#51
(07-21-2021, 05:15 PM)choosetowitness Wrote:
(07-20-2021, 07:43 AM)Some Guy Wrote: Unrelated, its funny that trads aren't allowed to blame the NO as a factor in the apostasy of the West but the libs and cons get to say its ALL thanks to the NO Catholicism is growing in Africa.

This is something I've been thinking about the past few days. I've heard conflicting reports of "traditionalism thriving in Africa" and "Novus Ordo Mass has built the Church up in Africa". I wonder which is true, or is it a particular mix?

I'm unsure myself, but I do know that the good Abp. Lefebvre did tremendous works of evangelization in Africa in the mid-20th century. So that may have helped things along traditionally.
"The Heart of Jesus is closer to you when you suffer, than when you are full of joy." - St. Margaret Mary Alacoque

Put not your trust in princes: In the children of men, in whom there is no salvation. - Ps. 145:2-3

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:3-4
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#52
(07-21-2021, 05:21 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(07-21-2021, 05:15 PM)choosetowitness Wrote:
(07-20-2021, 07:43 AM)Some Guy Wrote: Unrelated, its funny that trads aren't allowed to blame the NO as a factor in the apostasy of the West but the libs and cons get to say its ALL thanks to the NO Catholicism is growing in Africa.

This is something I've been thinking about the past few days. I've heard conflicting reports of "traditionalism thriving in Africa" and "Novus Ordo Mass has built the Church up in Africa". I wonder which is true, or is it a particular mix?

I'm unsure myself, but I do know that the good Abp. Lefebvre did tremendous works of evangelization in Africa in the mid-20th century. So that may have helped things along traditionally.

To add a little extra confusion to the mix, I seem to recall in John L. Allen's "The Future Church" that the Catholicism in Africa has a Charismatic Renewal flavoring to it.  Not sure I'm recalling that correctly, though, as I now do not have a copy of the book to check.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#53
(07-21-2021, 05:58 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(07-21-2021, 05:21 PM)Augustinian Wrote:
(07-21-2021, 05:15 PM)choosetowitness Wrote:
(07-20-2021, 07:43 AM)Some Guy Wrote: Unrelated, its funny that trads aren't allowed to blame the NO as a factor in the apostasy of the West but the libs and cons get to say its ALL thanks to the NO Catholicism is growing in Africa.

This is something I've been thinking about the past few days. I've heard conflicting reports of "traditionalism thriving in Africa" and "Novus Ordo Mass has built the Church up in Africa". I wonder which is true, or is it a particular mix?

I'm unsure myself, but I do know that the good Abp. Lefebvre did tremendous works of evangelization in Africa in the mid-20th century. So that may have helped things along traditionally.

To add a little extra confusion to the mix, I seem to recall in John L. Allen's "The Future Church" that the Catholicism in Africa has a Charismatic Renewal flavoring to it.  Not sure I'm recalling that correctly, though, as I now do not have a copy of the book to check.

Haha, my point exactly. Hard to tell what the "future of the Church in Africa" really looks like. Time to search around for more info.
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#54
Another problem for the Church in some places in Africa is strong support for bigamy.
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#55
(07-21-2021, 09:12 PM)Eric F Wrote: Another problem for the Church in some places in Africa is strong support for bigamy.

Which was another issue Allen discusses in that book...hm, I'm now quite tempted to buy the book again.  It's old enough that some of his predictions might have come to pass or been falsified.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#56
(07-19-2021, 08:30 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: I've seen references made to conservative Novus Ordo Catholics.  How would you define this?  I think I know what this means, but I am interested in your thoughts.

Someone who accepts Vatican II but has problems with it. I know a guy like this. He goes to NO masses and wants a more "muscular" Church but he balks at trads.
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#57
(07-19-2021, 08:36 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: I would probably define it as something like this: a Catholic who accepts Vatican II and the resulting "Novus Ordo" and who does not believe they were a rupture with past teaching.

That sounds like a normal, mainstream, liberal/progressive Catholic, not a conservative one.
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#58
(07-22-2021, 10:58 AM)Bryan Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 08:36 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: I would probably define it as something like this: a Catholic who accepts Vatican II and the resulting "Novus Ordo" and who does not believe they were a rupture with past teaching.

That sounds like a normal, mainstream, liberal/progressive Catholic, not a conservative one.

A conservative seeks to conserve, so someone who thinks Vatican II is in continuity with past teaching believes it conserves the Church's teaching.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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#59
(07-22-2021, 11:06 AM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(07-22-2021, 10:58 AM)Bryan Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 08:36 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: I would probably define it as something like this: a Catholic who accepts Vatican II and the resulting "Novus Ordo" and who does not believe they were a rupture with past teaching.

That sounds like a normal, mainstream, liberal/progressive Catholic, not a conservative one.

A conservative seeks to conserve, so someone who thinks Vatican II is in continuity with past teaching believes it conserves the Church's teaching.

I think you're being too literal, too narrow in your use of "conservative." Words have denotations and connotations. You're using the dictionary definition, the denotation. 

The connotation of "conservative" is someone who is right-wing. I think the OP is asking about the right-wing of the Catholic mainstream. 
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#60
(07-22-2021, 11:25 AM)Bryan Wrote:
(07-22-2021, 11:06 AM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(07-22-2021, 10:58 AM)Bryan Wrote:
(07-19-2021, 08:36 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: I would probably define it as something like this: a Catholic who accepts Vatican II and the resulting "Novus Ordo" and who does not believe they were a rupture with past teaching.

That sounds like a normal, mainstream, liberal/progressive Catholic, not a conservative one.

A conservative seeks to conserve, so someone who thinks Vatican II is in continuity with past teaching believes it conserves the Church's teaching.

I think you're being too literal, too narrow in your use of "conservative." Words have denotations and connotations. You're using the dictionary definition, the denotation. 

The connotation of "conservative" is someone who is right-wing. I think the OP is asking about the right-wing of the Catholic mainstream. 

If I am not mistaken, the OP asked because a few of us (I was one of them) were using the term over the past few days on here.  And the definition that I offered is precisely what I had in mind as I used it.
"For the true friends of the people are neither revolutionaries nor innovators, but traditionalists."
- Pope St. Pius X

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables."
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4

"Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
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