What are conservative Novus Ordo Catholics?
#71
(07-23-2021, 02:13 AM)Adventus Wrote: Can you give an example of an error a conservative Catholic would hold?

10 Errors are outlined on this page, in the "The Basics of the Errors" sub-section about half-way down the page: https://www.fisheaters.com/traditionalca...sm101.html
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#72
One thing I think that should be asked, hinted at in some of the responses, why does it matter/why even differentiate trad vs conservative?

This moto proprio really highlighted the fact that these divisions in peoples minds are doing nothing but hurting the church. An us vs them mentality when it comes to fellow catholics. What should be the only real question is, is someone catholic or not? Who really cares if they go to the NO, or TLM, that alone is not going to dictate if you get to heaven or not. God is not going to have a line for TLM goers, and another for NO. Its going to matter are you Catholic, did you faithfully love and serve God your whole life.

We can debate different aspects, such as V2 is amazing vs V2 needs to go, the merits of the TLM vs another, etc. At the end of the day though, it really is secondary to the designation that actually matters, catholic or not.

The splitting into groups of trads on one side, libs on another (heretics really, for if you openly reject dogma you are openly rejecting the faith, thus outside the faith) and conservatives sandwiched in the middle.

I honestly think it would be better overall to just go back to the labels of catholic and non catholic. Every catholic is a trad, for we hold to Tradition. Every catholic is a conservative, for we hold to conserving that tradition. This splitting into tiny factions is causing damage to the church as a whole.
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#73
(07-26-2021, 02:03 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: What should be the only real question is, is someone catholic or not?

More than 2/3 of Novus Ordo Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. So, 2/3 of the time, the answer is no. Given that liberals are not 2/3 of the Church, this indicts even some of the "conservatives" you mention.

(07-26-2021, 02:03 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: Who really cares if they go to the NO, or TLM, that alone is not going to dictate if you get to heaven or not.

99% of TLM-goers believe in the Real Presence, don't contracept, don't vote for pro-aborts, keep all of the precepts and moral teachings, etc.

You can debate whether the TLM produced their faith or their faith drove them to the TLM (chicken vs. egg), but the odds of salvation look a whole lot better than for the people who don't believe and don't follow the moral law.

(07-26-2021, 02:03 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: did you faithfully love and serve God your whole life.

Protestants think they're doing this. They think they're saved. The reason they're wrong is the same reason why a pro-abort "Catholic" who doesn't believe in the Real Presence is also wrong.
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#74
(07-26-2021, 02:14 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(07-26-2021, 02:03 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: What should be the only real question is, is someone catholic or not?

More than 2/3 of Novus Ordo Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence.  So, 2/3 of the time, the answer is no.  Given that liberals are not 2/3 of the Church, this indicts even some of the "conservatives" you mention.

(07-26-2021, 02:03 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: Who really cares if they go to the NO, or TLM, that alone is not going to dictate if you get to heaven or not.

99% of TLM-goers believe in the Real Presence, don't contracept, don't vote for pro-aborts, keep all of the precepts and moral teachings, etc.

You can debate whether the TLM produced their faith or their faith drove them to the TLM (chicken vs. egg), but the odds of salvation look a whole lot better than for the people who don't believe and don't follow the moral law.

(07-26-2021, 02:03 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: did you faithfully love and serve God your whole life.

Protestants think they're doing this.  They think they're saved.  The reason they're wrong is the same reason why a pro-abort "Catholic" who doesn't believe in the Real Presence is also wrong.

Very true, but one can not both deny dogma and be a catholic. Thus, 2/3rds of people who claim to be catholic, aren't. Same situation would be if we had a large number of people show up to the tlm, pay lip service to it all, and then then go vote/act however they want (as was the case in america for many years). These people, if they reject dogmas of the faith, are outside the faith, and thus are not catholic. They can claim to be, just like all heretics claim to be the 'true catholics', but they are wrong.

The odds tend to be better, in my opinion, to be with those church's that take it seriously. This tends to be, by and large, those parishes that offer the TLM. Speaking for the western rite, not speaking for our eastern brothers. However, that does not change the fact that in the end, what mass you go to is secondary to getting heaven. The importance is whether one is catholic or not. That is the important designator here. How one stays catholic, what environment makes it easier to be catholic and raise their family catholic, that can all be debated between Catholics. What im bringing up is the splitting of, the creating of factions among Catholics, and the resulting 'you guys are to rigid to be catholic' or 'you guys are too compromising to be catholic' ness that has come from it.

Sure they think they are doing, same with pagans. And exactly true on why they are wrong, they are not catholic by rejecting dogmas of the faith, even openly.
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#75
(07-26-2021, 02:33 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: However, that does not change the fact that in the end, what mass you go to is secondary to getting heaven.

I'll be judged on whether the souls under my authority get to Heaven.

The TLM is the best tool I have to get them there. If I preach the Real Presence, the sacraments, and the moral law at home, and then we go to a Novus Ordo parish where nobody acts in a way that suggests belief in these things, then they'll think I'm either a hypocrite or an idiot. Associating closely with people who obviously don't believe makes my message less credible.
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#76
(07-26-2021, 02:43 PM)ChairmanJoeAintMyPresident Wrote:
(07-26-2021, 02:33 PM)Sword of St. Michael Wrote: However, that does not change the fact that in the end, what mass you go to is secondary to getting heaven.

I'll be judged on whether the souls under my authority get to Heaven.

The TLM is the best tool I have to get them there.  If I preach the Real Presence, the sacraments, and the moral law at home, and then we go to a Novus Ordo parish where nobody acts in a way that suggests belief in these things, then they'll think I'm either a hypocrite or an idiot.  Associating closely with people who obviously don't believe makes my message less credible.

And that very well may be the case for most people, in that the TLM is the best tool in your situation to pass on the faith. For me and my family, the TLM is the best possible way, along with home instruction, to get our kids raised in the faith and to (hoping/praying) to retain the faith. However, that does not change the fact that the main designation that matters is whether one is catholic or not. We will be judged on how the souls given to us to care for turn out. However, your individual purpose, your specific main reason for existence is to get to heaven. We are given other tasks, if married, then to get spouse to heaven and any kids, if priest, then get our people to heaven, but the primary purpose above all that, is the care of our soul and getting our soul to heaven. That is our primary concern.

Thus my statement that what truly matters is whether one is catholic is not is the distinction we should have, not the trads, conservatives, or tlm vs no. What matters is, is one practicing the faith or not. Is one Catholic or not. The mass, the non binding opinions about aspects of dogma (application of the death penalty), those are debates between two catholics on what is a better way of applying or living out the faith, its not two separate factions, two separate religions of people (trads and no) who are fighting over the title 'catholic'. The feeling I have gotten from alot of people on both sides is that the 'other' is not catholic for x reasons. The splitting in people minds of us vs them by distinguishing one group vs another helps that mentality.

Not saying, CJAMP that you do this, im pointing out what I have seen online, and seen pop up in the legit frustration people have had with this papal decree.
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