Can A Catholic Worship At Orthodox Liturgies?
#41
(10-02-2021, 03:47 PM)NoliTardare Wrote: After all the average Orthodox, isn't repudiating any dogmas, he simply doesn't know a thing about catholic dogmas. It's not his fault he's not Catholic. 

And that is exactly why I pointed out that the vast majority of Orthodox laity are only materially in heresy and schism, not formally. However, it doesn't change the fact that they are in heresy and schism. 

However, I agree that just baldly telling them they are heretics and schismatics is not any way to convince them of the Truth of Christ's Church and that they are not part of it.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

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#42
(10-02-2021, 12:13 PM)archangel michael Wrote: We Eastern Catholics don't say the filoque either
The difference is what is intended when reciting the Creed with regards to the Filioque, since the Filioque is dogma. A Catholic of the eastern rite reciting the original Creed without the Filioque as the internal underlying belief I firmly believe falls into some form of heresy (depending on if the omission is or is not intentional).
Daily Rosary pray,
Scapular as She asked,
Little Office at my side,
Until the day I pass.

Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#43
(10-02-2021, 05:56 PM)Lavenderson Wrote:
(10-02-2021, 12:13 PM)archangel michael Wrote: We Eastern Catholics don't say the filoque either
The difference is what is intended when reciting the Creed with regards to the Filioque, since the Filioque is dogma. A Catholic of the eastern rite reciting the original Creed without the Filioque as the internal underlying belief I firmly believe falls into some form of heresy (depending on if the omission is or is not intentional).


One thing are the eastern catholic rites and another thing are the ortodox churchs, which are in orient. You should know it. Don't be confussed.
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#44
(10-02-2021, 06:00 PM)Tomas Wrote:
(10-02-2021, 05:56 PM)Lavenderson Wrote:
(10-02-2021, 12:13 PM)archangel michael Wrote: We Eastern Catholics don't say the filoque either
The difference is what is intended when reciting the Creed with regards to the Filioque, since the Filioque is dogma. A Catholic of the eastern rite reciting the original Creed without the Filioque as the internal underlying belief I firmly believe falls into some form of heresy (depending on if the omission is or is not intentional).


One thing are the eastern catholic rites and another thing are the ortodox churchs, which are in orient. You should know it. Don't be confussed.
East Catholics and Eastern Orthodox use the same rite.
Daily Rosary pray,
Scapular as She asked,
Little Office at my side,
Until the day I pass.

Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#45
I'm sorry, but you are wrong.

As i said, my family is armenian catholic, so i talk with property.



Catholic Church has many rites. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHO DEPENDS ON THE POPE.

You have occidental rites, like Ambrossian (in Milán, Italy), Canarian (in Canarian's islands), and some more. And oriental rites, like mine (armenian), but also there are greek, maronite (lebanon), coptical rite (in Egypt), syrian, etc. All this ones, are catholic rites, with their own Liturgie, their own calendar, their own Patriarch.

Also, there are in Orient the ortodox, with their own rite, Liturgie, calendar, saints, Patriarch. Examples of oriental ortodox churchs: russian, greek, armenian, syrian, etc.
This ortodox churchs, aren't in comunion with the Pope, as they are the first ones. 

So you have oriental catholics and ortodox from same locations (greek catholics and ortodox, etc.).


Even if for example a russian ortodox church is stablished in Buenos Aires, or in somewhere US territory, they will follow their own rite. The same happens with the catholic rites in orient. No matter the territory, they will follow their rite.


All catholic in orient, follows the Pope, and all the doctrines.

My grandparents were all from Armenia, except the mother of my father, who was born in Damascus (but also her family was from Armenia too).
Most of my grandparents came to Argentina after Armenian Genocide by the turks.
My father was baptized by the Chaldean rite (catholic chaldean), i was baptized in latin rite (the same as you, i guess).Half of the sons of my brothers were baptized at the Armenian Catholic Church.

I know this subject, trust me. The thing is that not many priest in occidental world, knows about oriental rites, they doesn't give importance to this, so they doesn't know it.
Oriental rites which are catholics, can have married priests (i didn't meet or know about anyone, but it's possible), the priest who get married, can't be Bishop or nothing else than priest in all his life.
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#46
Sure, the Byzantine rite is used by both East Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. The Armenian rite is used by both Armenian Catholics and Armenian Apostolics (Oriental Orthodox). But this detracts from the point.

If you call yourself Catholic and your particular rite recites the Creed without the Filioque, but you don't believe the Filioque, you necessarily fall into some degree of heresy. That's the point.
Daily Rosary pray,
Scapular as She asked,
Little Office at my side,
Until the day I pass.

Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#47
(10-02-2021, 07:12 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: Sure, the Byzantine rite is used by both East Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. The Armenian rite is used by both Armenian Catholics and Armenian Apostolics (Oriental Orthodox). 

In fact, with the exception of the Maronites, who never left unity with the Holy See, every Eastern Catholic Church has an Orthodox counterpart that uses the same Rite. Even in the case of the Maronites, they share the Liturgy of St James with the Syriac Catholic Church and the Syriac Orthodox. 
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#48
(10-02-2021, 02:18 PM)NoliTardare Wrote: That's right, but I just wanted to point out that, as far as I know, the sacraments taken from heretics don't work. Besides, Saint Thomas of Aquinas said: "Peccat qui audit missam haereticorum vel alia sacramenta sumit" - "Sins he who takes Mass or other Sacraments of heretics"

Heretics can have valid sacraments, and the Orthodox and other groups who have maintained valid Holy Orders do, although it's a sin to attend them except in danger of death. But 'valid' doesn't mean the same thing as 'pleasing to God'.
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#49
(10-02-2021, 08:15 PM)Paul Wrote: Heretics can have valid sacraments, and the Orthodox and other groups who have maintained valid Holy Orders do, although it's a sin to attend them except in danger of death.
I doubt that Pope St. John Paul II committed a sin when he attended Orthodox Divine Liturgy on May 9, 1999 in Romania. I don't see how it can be a sin to attend an Orthodox Liturgy when you have Catholic Saints doing such. Please support your contention that it is a sin for a Roman Catholic to attend Orthodox Liturgy. What are your references for this? Also do you say it is a mortal sin or a venial sin?
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#50
(10-02-2021, 07:12 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: Sure, the Byzantine rite is used by both East Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. The Armenian rite is used by both Armenian Catholics and Armenian Apostolics (Oriental Orthodox). But this detracts from the point.

If you call yourself Catholic and your particular rite recites the Creed without the Filioque, but you don't believe the Filioque, you necessarily fall into some degree of heresy. That's the point.

You are talking without knowing how things works about this subject.

You should know that a Catholic in all parts of the world can be named as it, if they agree with the Apostolic Symbol, the Nicene one, or Saint Anastasius one. That's the minimum.
As i said, Armenian Catholic Church, agree with all Pope's doctrine, includying the 3 Symbols.


What happened to you, i think, is that you have talked to a syrian ortodox one. They are the only ortodox church that says that "they are catholics". Also they say that "Catholic Church of Rome, have stolen our name". They say this, based on that St. Ignatius of Antioquia named the Christian Church as Catholic Church in year 107.
Well, the syrian ortodox church from Antioquia aren't catholics, there are syrian catholics, but they are not them.
The syrian ortodox priests are not less than strange people. They say lies to catholic people, because they look for proselytes.

Again, ortodox church is different than catholic church, and there are catholic oriental rites.

Catholics shouldn't go to ortodox church, except in case of emergency (no catholic church available nearby). Also, shouldn't talk to ortodox priests about doctrines, there is an ecumenic dialogue betwen Rome, and their Ortodox Patriarchs since many years.

About Armenian Catholic Church, it's one of the most ancient liturgies that exists. From year 301 until 1750 aprox., Catholics depended from Rome (some intervals of time, it was part of the Patriarch of Jerusalen territory). After some ortodox converted to catholicism in 1750 aprox., Rome gave the Armenian Catholic Church their own Patriarch. But always existed catholics in Armenia, only not in the entire territory.


You can come with 10.000 different doctrines, but the truth is just 1.


1Co 4:13  We are blasphemed: and we entreat. We are made as the refuse of this world, the offscouring of all, even until now. 
1Co 4:14  I write not these things to confound you: but I admonish you as my dearest children. 
1Co 4:15  For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you. 
1Co 4:16  Wherefore, I beseech you, be ye followers of me as I also am of Christ. 
1Co 4:17  For this cause have I sent to you Timothy, who is my dearest son and faithful in the Lord. Who will put you in mind of my ways, which are in Christ Jesus: as I teach every where in every church.
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