Can A Catholic Worship At Orthodox Liturgies?
#71
(10-03-2021, 01:01 AM)AlNg777 Wrote:
(10-02-2021, 09:36 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: I'm always amazed at people who invoke John Paul as some sort of standard of Catholic orthodoxy!
I thought that Pope St. John Paul II was a canonized Catholic Saint. Aren't all Catholic Saints in heaven and blessed by Almighty God ? Is it not Catholic teaching that once a person is canonized as a saint, he is worthy of universal veneration and further he is held up as worthy of our emulation?
Further, did not Pope Benedict also participate in the Divine Liturgy according to the rite of Saint John Chrysostom in the Patriarchal Church of Saint George in the Phanar, Istanbul on Thursday, 30 November 2006? I don't see the support for a claim that this was a sin.
https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-...turgy.html
"If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic."
- Pope St. Agatho I

"So great is my aversion for the company of heretics, or of conversation with them, that I say we ought not even go near them."
- St. Anthony the Abbot
Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#72
(10-03-2021, 04:39 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: "If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic."
- Pope St. Agatho I

"So great is my aversion for the company of heretics, or of conversation with them, that I say we ought not even go near them."
- St. Anthony the Abbot

That's CATHOLIC teaching, not Church of Nice teaching. Since the Council, doncha know, all faiths are good. There's no such thing as heresy, schism, or infidelity. How else will we attain the one-world church to go with the one-world government?
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
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My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
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#73
(10-03-2021, 04:39 PM)Lavenderson Wrote:
(10-03-2021, 01:01 AM)AlNg777 Wrote:
(10-02-2021, 09:36 PM)jovan66102 Wrote: I'm always amazed at people who invoke John Paul as some sort of standard of Catholic orthodoxy!
I thought that Pope St. John Paul II was a canonized Catholic Saint. Aren't all Catholic Saints in heaven and blessed by Almighty God ? Is it not Catholic teaching that once a person is canonized as a saint, he is worthy of universal veneration and further he is held up as worthy of our emulation?
Further, did not Pope Benedict also participate in the Divine Liturgy according to the rite of Saint John Chrysostom in the Patriarchal Church of Saint George in the Phanar, Istanbul on Thursday, 30 November 2006? I don't see the support for a claim that this was a sin.
https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-...turgy.html
"If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic."
- Pope St. Agatho I

"So great is my aversion for the company of heretics, or of conversation with them, that I say we ought not even go near them."
- St. Anthony the Abbot
I'd just point out that both of those holy fathers are pre-schism saints.  Hundreds of years pre-schism.  They lived when there was no such thing as the Roman Catholic Church vs. the Orthodox Church.  They are venerated by both Catholics and Orthodox.  And that is not to say that what is quoted of them is not true.
"I'm an old man now and have had a great many problems.  Most of them never happened."~ Mark Twain

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug."~Mark Knopfler (?)
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#74
Fair enough but I cant see how that changes much...?
Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#75
I actually had a Catholic deacon tell me online, that attending an Orthodox liturgy would fulfill my Sunday obligation, but that attending a SSPX mass (this was before Bergoglio said it was OK) might not, particularly if I was attending out of defiance. When I suggested to him that at the Orthodox church I might possibly hear condemnations of the Catholic doctrine, while at the SSPX one I'd be guaranteed to hear traditional Catholic teaching, he told me I obviously considered myself more knowledgeable than the Pope and his Bishops on the subject.
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#76
(10-03-2021, 08:02 PM)Eric F Wrote: I actually had a Catholic deacon tell me online, that attending an Orthodox liturgy would fulfill my Sunday obligation, but that attending a SSPX mass (this was before Bergoglio said it was OK) might not, particularly if I was attending out of defiance. When I suggested to him that at the Orthodox church I might possibly hear condemnations of the Catholic doctrine, while at the SSPX one I'd be guaranteed to hear traditional Catholic teaching, he told me I obviously considered myself more knowledgeable than the Pope and his Bishops on the subject.
Yeah how dare you exercise common sense and not blindly follow. Are you your own Pope or something?
Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#77
(10-03-2021, 04:39 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: "If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic."
- Pope St. Agatho I
So my brother, a Catholic, invited us to a Christmas dinner and we accepted the invitation. We got there and it was a big table set with all the delicious fixings. Several family members were there and mostly all were Catholic except one Baptist who was married to a distant relative. Together we all said the prayer:
Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts which we have received through thy bounty. through Christ Our Lord. Amen.
Now am I right in that you claim we are all heretics because we prayed together with a Baptist ( a heretic) at our dinner?
Also, Catholics pray with Orthodox all the time when an Orthodox comes to Catholic Mass. So when an Orthodox Christian comes to Catholic Mass, and we pray together, do you claim then that all Catholics at that Mass who prayed with the heretic are now heretics? Further, do you claim that Pope Benedict, and Pope St. John Paul II are heretics since they prayed with the Orthodox at a Divine Liturgy? BTW, it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to freely accept heresy and become a heretic is it not? How can a Pope who is a heretic be a Saint in the Catholic Church and be worthy of universal veneration and emulation?
I was at a Catholic funeral recently and we all prayed together, including the non-Catholic heretics. So everyone at that funeral, who prayed with the heretic, is now a heretic?
I don't think that you would find too many Catholic priests agreeing with you.
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#78
(10-03-2021, 10:04 PM)AlNg777 Wrote:
(10-03-2021, 04:39 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: "If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic."
- Pope St. Agatho I
So my brother, a Catholic, invited us to a Christmas dinner and we accepted the invitation. We got there and it was a big table set with all the delicious fixings. Several family members were there and mostly all were Catholic except one Baptist who was married to a distant relative. Together we all said the prayer:
Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts which we have received through thy bounty. through Christ Our Lord. Amen.
Now am I right in that you claim we are all heretics because we prayed together with a Baptist ( a heretic) at our dinner?
Also, Catholics pray with Orthodox all the time when an Orthodox comes to Catholic Mass. So when an Orthodox Christian comes to Catholic Mass, and we pray together, do you claim then that all Catholics at that Mass who prayed with the heretic are now heretics? Further, do you claim that Pope Benedict, and Pope St. John Paul II are heretics since they prayed with the Orthodox at a Divine Liturgy? BTW, it is a mortal sin for a Catholic to freely accept heresy and become a heretic is it not? How can a Pope who is a heretic be a Saint in the Catholic Church and be worthy of universal veneration and emulation?
I was at a Catholic funeral recently and we all prayed together, including the non-Catholic heretics. So everyone at that funeral, who prayed with the heretic, is now a heretic?
I don't think that you would find too many Catholic priests agreeing with you.
I dont claim praying with heretics makes you a heretic. Pope St Agathos I does, remember that. Im just a lowly middle man.

To pray and worship together with people who reject the Faith is to give assent to what they believe. If I attend a funeral for a Pentecostal friend and sit off to the side to offer the Rosary for his soul, while his Pentecostal family and friends start yodeling in tongues, that is not me praying with them. But if I as a Catholic joined hands with them and start yodeling in tongues too, its heretical. If I painted my face and danced around a blue elephant with my hindu friends before dinner, is that acceptable as a Catholic? Your personal situation at family dinners is none of my business, but I certainly would at least silently intend to reject participating and just offer my prayer as a lone wolf and not in union with the rest.

And no, Catholics dont become heretics if an Orthodox attends Catholic Mass, goes without saying. However a Catholic going to an Orthodox liturgy partcipates together with those who reject multiple dogmas. If you want the Byzantine rite, join our east Catholic brethren. But you simply cannot willingly participate in prayer together with people who reject the Faith, this is how Christians of the past have always understood it. Some Christians even used to reject someone from stepping one foot in their homes if they didnt have the Faith, even if they were family! We dont take our Faith nearly as seriously as Christians used to.

And yes, after Vatican 2 they began canonizing people for veneration who behaved in ways that would have been considered totally heretical for the vast majority of Christian history. Weird right? There is almost two thousand years of popes and saints condemning the actions of the last 60 years of the V2 Church, so I dont care what any priest today thinks IF what they think directly contradicts the previous two millenia of Catholicism.
Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#79
(10-03-2021, 11:37 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: There is almost two thousand years of popes and saints condemning the actions of the last 60 years of the V2 Church, so I dont care what any priest today thinks IF what they think directly contradicts the previous two millenia of Catholicism.

Well said, Lavenderson, well said indeed!
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#80
(10-03-2021, 11:37 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: "If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic."
- Pope St. Agatho I

And no, Catholics dont become heretics if an Orthodox attends Catholic Mass,
Something is wrong because the Catholic is at Mass and is praying with a heretic. And at family meals, Catholics often pray with other family members who may be heretics. I suspect that this quote is taken out of context or is misquoted in translation. No one believes today that a Catholic is a heretic if he happens to be at a funeral where a heretic is present and you all say the Lord's prayer together.
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