Can A Catholic Worship At Orthodox Liturgies?
#81
(10-04-2021, 12:30 AM)AlNg777 Wrote:
(10-03-2021, 11:37 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: "If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic."
- Pope St. Agatho I

And no, Catholics dont become heretics if an Orthodox attends Catholic Mass,
Something is wrong because the Catholic is at Mass and is praying with a heretic. And at family meals, Catholics often pray with other family members who may be  heretics. I suspect that this quote is taken out of context or is misquoted in translation. No one believes today that a Catholic is a heretic if he happens to be at a funeral where a heretic is present and you all say the Lord's prayer together.
... did you even read my post? Orthodox attending Catholic Mass doesnt make the Catholics heretics because the Catholics do not have the explicit intention to participate in prayer together with a heretic. The Catholics might not even know theres an Orthodox present. It is your intention that matters, and if you know there is heretics present and you have full intention to participate in prayer together with them, this is heretical plain and simple. You are disagreeing with the last two thousand years of Catholicism I cant understand how that doesnt bother you deeply.

Keep in mind that early Christians did not even allow catechumens to participate in the entriety of the Mass until they were fully baptized. Think about it, people who wanted the Faith weren't allowed to even be in the building after the first portion of the Mass ended because they were still in the process. Now imagine telling early Christians that we today participate in prayer together with people who outright reject our Faith. Kyrie eleison
Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#82
(10-04-2021, 12:42 AM)Lavenderson Wrote: .. if you know there is heretics present and you have full intention to participate in prayer together with them, this is heretical plain and simple. You are disagreeing with the last two thousand years of Catholicism I cant understand how that doesnt bother you deeply.
What you say is problematic because Pope Benedict participated in the Divine Liturgy according to the rite of Saint John Chrysostom in the Patriarchal Church of Saint George in the Phanar, Istanbul on Thursday, 30 November 2006. He participated in prayer together with the Orthodox. As did many other Catholics. No one believes that Pope Benedict and all the other Catholics there are heretics, even though they prayed together with the Orthodox and had the full intention to do so. His participation was duly noted by the Vatican.
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#83
(10-04-2021, 01:03 AM)AlNg777 Wrote: Pope Benedict participated in the Divine Liturgy according to the rite of Saint John Chrysostom in the Patriarchal Church of Saint George in the Phanar, Istanbul on Thursday, 30 November 2006. 
Yes, and as I pointed out about JPII's actions, had he done the same as a Priest before the Council his Bishop would have disciplined him. Had he done it as a Bishop, he would have been slapped down by the Vatican so fast his head would have spun.

Basically, all you're doing is reinforcing what Francis made explicit with his 'the NO is the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Latin Rite' remark in Traditionis Custodes, that the NO Church is a new, non-Catholic religion. As Robert De Piante once famously said:

What Catholics once were, we are,
If we are wrong, then Catholics through the ages have been wrong.

We are what you once were.
We believe what you once believed.
We worship as you once worshipped.

If we are wrong now, you were wrong then.
If you were right then, we are right now.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
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#84
(10-04-2021, 01:34 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: Basically, all you're doing is reinforcing what Francis made explicit with his 'the NO is the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Latin Rite' remark in Traditionis Custodes, that the NO Church is a new, non-Catholic religion.
If you attend a Catholic Eastern rite liturgy, then you commemorate Pope Francis as the Pope of Rome, No? At least that is what i saw in the local ruthenian Catholic church in this area. Why commemorate the leader of a non-Catholic heretical religion? Does that make you a heretic if you do so? After all, "If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic."
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#85
(10-04-2021, 01:56 AM)AlNg777 Wrote:
(10-04-2021, 01:34 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: Basically, all you're doing is reinforcing what Francis made explicit with his 'the NO is the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Latin Rite' remark in Traditionis Custodes, that the NO Church is a new, non-Catholic religion.
If you attend a Catholic Eastern rite liturgy, then you commemorate Pope Francis as the Pope of Rome, No? At least that is what i saw in the local ruthenian Catholic church in this area. Why commemorate the leader of a non-Catholic heretical religion? Does that make you a heretic if you do so? After all, "If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic."

Because we're Catholic and, heretic or not, he is the Pope of Rome (Do you know why we call him that?). He's not the first heretic Pope the Church has ever had, but please God, I hope he's the last! And when Pope Agatho (obit, 681, before Honorius I, obit 638, or John XXII, obit 1334) said that, he had no idea that there would ever be a heretic on the Throne of Peter.

As an aside, up until the Feast of OL of Mt Carmel this year, I had believed, and argued, that the NO Church was simply the Catholic Church with a different 'emphasis', but Francis closed that door. He made it quite clear that the Catholic Church and the NO Church are NOT the same Church. The full saying is 'lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi',  'As we pray so shall we believe. As we believe so shall we live'. So according to Francis, the lex orandi is different in the two Churches. If that is true, it logically follows that the lex credendi and the lex vivendi must be different too. And, if that's true, I see no other position to take. But, unfortunately, he's still the Pope. And it's far above my paygrade to sort that out. I'll trust in God to do it. I may not live to see it, but I can see something like the anathematising of Pope Honorius. 
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#86
(10-04-2021, 01:56 AM)AlNg777 Wrote:
(10-04-2021, 01:34 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: Basically, all you're doing is reinforcing what Francis made explicit with his 'the NO is the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Latin Rite' remark in Traditionis Custodes, that the NO Church is a new, non-Catholic religion.
If you attend a Catholic Eastern rite liturgy, then you commemorate Pope Francis as the Pope of Rome, No? At least that is what i saw in the local ruthenian Catholic church in this area. Why commemorate the leader of a non-Catholic heretical religion? Does that make you a heretic if you do so? After all, "If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic."


Some are toxic people here. Don't worry, AlNg
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#87
(10-04-2021, 05:27 AM)Tomas Wrote:
(10-04-2021, 01:56 AM)AlNg777 Wrote:
(10-04-2021, 01:34 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: Basically, all you're doing is reinforcing what Francis made explicit with his 'the NO is the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Latin Rite' remark in Traditionis Custodes, that the NO Church is a new, non-Catholic religion.
If you attend a Catholic Eastern rite liturgy, then you commemorate Pope Francis as the Pope of Rome, No? At least that is what i saw in the local ruthenian Catholic church in this area. Why commemorate the leader of a non-Catholic heretical religion? Does that make you a heretic if you do so? After all, "If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic."


Some are toxic people here. Don't worry, AlNg

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#88
(10-04-2021, 03:29 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(10-04-2021, 01:56 AM)AlNg777 Wrote:
(10-04-2021, 01:34 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: Basically, all you're doing is reinforcing what Francis made explicit with his 'the NO is the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Latin Rite' remark in Traditionis Custodes, that the NO Church is a new, non-Catholic religion.
If you attend a Catholic Eastern rite liturgy, then you commemorate Pope Francis as the Pope of Rome, No? At least that is what i saw in the local ruthenian Catholic church in this area. Why commemorate the leader of a non-Catholic heretical religion? Does that make you a heretic if you do so? After all, "If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic."

Because we're Catholic and, heretic or not, he is the Pope of Rome (Do you know why we call him that?). He's not the first heretic Pope the Church has ever had, but please God, I hope he's the last! And when Pope Agatho (obit, 681, before Honorius I, obit 638, or John XXII, obit 1334) said that, he had no idea that there would ever be a heretic on the Throne of Peter.

As an aside, up until the Feast of OL of Mt Carmel this year, I had believed, and argued, that the NO Church was simply the Catholic Church with a different 'emphasis', but Francis closed that door. He made it quite clear that the Catholic Church and the NO Church are NOT the same Church. The full saying is 'lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi',  'As we pray so shall we believe. As we believe so shall we live'. So according to Francis, the lex orandi is different in the two Churches. If that is true, it logically follows that the lex credendi and the lex vivendi must be different too. And, if that's true, I see no other position to take. But, unfortunately, he's still the Pope. And it's far above my paygrade to sort that out. I'll trust in God to do it. I may not live to see it, but I can see something like the anathematising of Pope Honorius. 

Maybe he's heretic, but I think on the Orthodox he agrees with you. They love Mary too much, and that doesn't agree with him. :-)
"We thought we could stay healthy in a sick world" - Pope.
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#89
(10-02-2021, 09:18 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: Its not a sin for a Catholic to attend the liturgy of any eastern rite as long as it is celebrated by Catholics. I doubt anyone here contests this.

Its a sin to attend the liturgy of an eastern rite that is celebrated by non Catholics, as in those who reject Papal Primacy or any dogmas of the Church. It has nothing to do with the liturgy itself, its about celebration with heretics.

JPII celebrating with heretics is obviously a problem, but its also not surprising for someone who kissed a koran. Id also love to hear of a single occasion in almost two millennia before 1960s of a saint who worshipped alongside professed heretics.

No Orthodox reject papal primacy. They DO reject papal supremacy, though, which is not the same thing.
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#90
(10-04-2021, 12:39 PM)Melkite Wrote:
(10-02-2021, 09:18 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: Its not a sin for a Catholic to attend the liturgy of any eastern rite as long as it is celebrated by Catholics. I doubt anyone here contests this.

Its a sin to attend the liturgy of an eastern rite that is celebrated by non Catholics, as in those who reject Papal Primacy or any dogmas of the Church. It has nothing to do with the liturgy itself, its about celebration with heretics.

JPII celebrating with heretics is obviously a problem, but its also not surprising for someone who kissed a koran. Id also love to hear of a single occasion in almost two millennia before 1960s of a saint who worshipped alongside professed heretics.

No Orthodox reject papal primacy.  They DO reject papal supremacy, though, which is not the same thing.
To many Latin Catholics, it is, indeed the same thing.  I couldn't count how many times I've seen the terms used interchangeably by Latin Catholics.
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