It is right to be a sedevacantist?
#1
The 2nd Vatican Council stablished many stuff which were thinked at the Trentine Council.
One of the Trentine conclussions was the universal education of religion, to know how to write and read (first time in history we have this idea). There wasn't the structure to do so at the 1600, so changes in liturgie were posposed many centuries.
Martin Luther requested to give mass in the own language of the country whatever the catholics are, and he requested this once he left the Catholic Church (that's the main thing i would criticize about Martin Luther).
So the main thing that changed with 2nd Vatican Council was the change of the language to the vernacular one, instead of latin. Then, also changed the seats disposal (there were only 2 lines of seats before, one for male, and the other one for female), the rest of the lines were a consequence of the Council.

2nd Vatican Council is the only Council that weren't debated doctrines in it, just Church ways of procedure.

The Catholic Mass is mainly a jew liturgie:
initial bless
readings of the Bible
priest explaining what was read
Eucharist
final bless


Apart the Comunion, everything can be found in a jew liturgie, and this is logical since the firsts apostols were mainly jew people.
Neh 9:3  And stoode vp in their place, & read in the booke of the law of the Lorde their God foure times on the day, and they knowledged and worshipped the Lord their God foure times on the day.

Neh 8:6  And Esdras praysed the Lorde the great God: And all the people aunswered, Amen, Ame, lifting vp their handes, and bowed them selues and worshipped the Lord falling downe vpon their faces to the grounde.
Neh 8:7  And Iesua, Bani, Serebiah, Iamin, Accub, Sebbethai, Hodaia, Maasia, Celita, Azariah, Iozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, & the Leuites caused the people to geue heede vnto the law: and the people stoode in their place.
Neh 8:8  And they read in the booke of the lawe of God distinctly, and gaue the sense, and caused them to vnderstand the reading.


So in the jew liturgie we find the same elements (reading of the Scripture and explanation of them by the teachers, the confession (we have it with the pray "I confess (...)" and initial and final bless).



Seems that for some people, at the 2nd Vatican Council, a malefic thunder fall in it, and all priests were diabolic. Well, this of course, it's a lie.
In the past i have talked to many sedevacantists, luckly they are not many. They were prepared people, but they went beyond other doctrines, and got losts of the Way.
The major threat from sedevacantism is that they have everyone their own website to spread their heressies to the ones who aren't prepared at all.


Now, after this introduction, let's go with the subject of the thread:
Is it right/legit to be a sedevacantist?

Let's see what Bible say about this:
1Jn 2:18  Litle chyldren, it is the last time, and as ye haue hearde howe that antichrist shall come, euen nowe are there many antichristes, whereby we knowe that it is the last tyme.
1Jn 2:19  They went out from vs, but they were not of vs: For yf they had ben of vs, they woulde no doubt haue continued with vs: But that it myght appeare that they were not of vs.
1Jn 2:20  Neuerthelesse, ye haue an oyntment of hym that is holy, and ye knowe all thynges.
1Jn 2:21  I haue not written vnto you, as though ye knewe not the trueth: but because ye knowe it, and that no lye is of the trueth.
1Jn 2:22  Who is a lyer, but he that denieth that Iesus is Christe? The same is antichrist that denyeth the father and the sonne.


So John said we are in the last time because there are many antichristes, the ones who left the only Christian Church that exists. Read Cathecism on numbers 675, 676

We can find the meaning of the number 666 in Bible, too:
Jn 6:66  From that time, many of his disciples wet backe, & walked no more with him.

Saint Cirilus of Jerusalen, said this words about Anticrist in his Cathechesis number 15:

"Apostasy and the Antichrist

9. And what will happen next? He says in what follows: "When you see, then, the abomination of desolation announced by the prophet Daniel, erected in the Holy Place (whoever reads, understand)" (Mt 24:15). And, in turn: "Then, if someone says to you:" Look, the Christ is here or there, "do not believe him" (Mt 24:23). Brotherly hatred later makes way for the Antichrist. The devil prepares the divisions between the peoples so that, when he arrives, he will be more favorably received. Let it not happen that no one present or any servants who are anywhere join the enemy. Writing the apostle Paul about this, he gave a clear sign by saying: First the apostasy must come and the impious Man, the Son of perdition, the Adversary who rises above all, who bears the name of God or is an object, must appear. of worship, to the point of sitting himself in the Sanctuary of God and proclaiming that he himself is God, don't you remember that I already told you this when I was with you? You know what it is that now holds him back, so that it manifests itself at his opportune moment.
Because the mystery of impiety is already at work. If only the one who now holds him is removed from the midst, then the Wicked One will appear, whom the Lord will destroy with the breath of his mouth, and will annihilate with the Manifestation of his Coming.
The coming of the wicked will be marked by the influence of Satan, with all kinds of miracles, signs, deceptive wonders, and all kinds of wickedness, which will seduce those who are to be condemned (2 Thess 2, 3b-1 Da).
So far Pablo. Certainly, now there is defection, because men have departed from right faith: some affirm that the Son is Father and others that he has been brought into existence from nothing. And in other times heretics were clearly perceptible, but now the Church is full of hidden heretics. Men have turned away from the truth and are eager for novelties (cf. 2 Tim 4: 3-4): Are they artificially composed words to persuade? Everyone listens sweetly: are they words for the conversion of the spirit? They all actually turn away. Many have strayed from righteous doctrines and are more likely to choose evil than apply to good. It is, therefore, apostasy, and we have to wait for the enemy. In part, he already began to send his predecessors to come he then ready to collect the loot. So take care of yourself, O man, and make your soul safe. The Church now conspires to you (2 Tim 4,1) in the presence of the living God (cf. 1 Tim 6,13) and announces to you in advance, before it happens, what refers to the Antichrist. We do not know if these things will happen in your time or if they will come after you, but the best thing is that, knowing them, you prevent yourself."



There is no doubt, then, that we are in the last time, and the Antichriste are many: everyone who left the Catholic Church.


Let's see the main doctrines of sedevacatism:

1) The Catholic Church was lost at the 2nd Vatican Council
2) The Pope is the Antichrist
3) Existence of a "pre-conciliar lineage" of Apostolic Sucession
4) The "soul of the Church" are the real catholics, the sedevacantists

Explanation:
1) Mat 16:15  He sayth vnto them: but whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16  Simon Peter aunswered and sayde: Thou art Christe, the sonne of the lyuyng God.

Mat 16:17  And Iesus aunswered, and sayde vnto hym: happy art thou Simon Bar Iona, for flesh & blood hath not opened [that] vnto thee, but my father which is in heauen.

Mat 16:18  And I say also vnto thee, that thou art Peter, and vpon this rocke I wyll buylde my congregation: And the gates of hell shall not preuayle agaynst it.

Mat 16:19  And I wyll geue vnto thee, the keyes of the kingdome of heauen: And whatsoeuer thou byndest in earth, shalbe bounde in heauen: and whatsoeuer thou loosest in earth, shalbe loosed in heauen.
Mat 16:20  Then charged he his disciples, that they shoulde tell no man, that he was Iesus Christe.


There is a promise, that the Gates of Hell shat not prevale against the Church of Christ, so, it must exists from about year 40 until today. With the same structure gave by God, includyng the Pope.
The sedevacantism, says with their doctrine, that the promise gaven by Christ, it's a lie.
2) As you can read in the previus texts i have written, 1 person can't be the only Antichriste, because THEY ARE MANY. And the Pope is inside the Church, he never left it. So, no Pope can be the Antichrist or part of it, they doesn't have all the requirements to quialify as them. Even the worse Popes in history.
3) They have this doctrine, as if Holy Spirit were confussed, or some vampire stuff. Saint Paul sayd this words:
Efe 4:3  Endeuoryng to kepe the vnitie of the spirite in the bonde of peace:
Efe 4:4  One body and one spirite, euen as ye are called in one hope of your calling.

4) The Catholic Church, has an old dogma (one of the oldest ones) which it says "No salvation outside Catholic Church"
This doesn't mean that non Catholic people can get salvation. In fact, there weren't protestants as we know today when this dogma was given. For public understanding it would be today "The secret of the salvation is only at Catholic Church".
The rest will have only desviations of Feith or just pure lies.
For non catholics, you will find the Catholic posture at Romans 2:
Rom 2:12  For whosoeuer hath sinned without lawe, shall also perishe without lawe: And as many as haue sinned in ye lawe, shalbe iudged by the lawe.
Rom 2:13  (For in the sight of God, they are not righteous whiche heare the lawe: but the doers of the lawe shalbe iustified.

Rom 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which haue not the lawe, do of nature the thynges conteyned in the lawe: they hauing not the lawe, are a lawe vnto them selues.

Rom 2:15  Which shewe the workes of the lawe written in their heartes, their conscience bearing them witnesse, & their thoughtes, accusyng one another, or excusyng,)
Rom 2:16  At the day when God shall iudge the secretes of men by Iesus Christe, accordyng to my Gospell.



The ones who never knew the Gospell, and are good people, they can find the grace of Christ by their works.
The trouble will be with the ones who leave the Catholic Church (they have knew the Catholic teachings, and rejected them to go somewhere else):
2Pe 2:20  For yf they, after they haue escaped from the fylthynesse of the worlde, thorowe the knowledge of the Lord, & the sauiour Iesus Christe, are yet tangled agayne therein, and ouercome, then is the later end worse with them then the begynnyng.
2Pe 2:21  For it had ben better for them not to haue knowen the way of righteousnes, then after they haue knowen it, to turne from the holy commaundement that was geuen vnto them.
2Pe 2:22  But the same is happened vnto them that is vsed to be spoken by the true prouerbe: The dogge is tourned to his owne vomite againe, and the sowe that was wasshed, is turned againe to her wallowyng in the myre.





I'm sorry to be so long on my writing, but i wrote it so sedevacantists can know the arguments, and protestants can understand it (they aren't in a different situation).
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#2
Might be easier on the eyes to use Bible translations with up to date english next time.
Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#3
(10-02-2021, 05:06 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: Might be easier on the eyes to use Bible translations with up to date english next time.
recommend me a catholic version, and i will see to get a PDF of it.

I'm an spanish native speaker.
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#4
(10-02-2021, 05:25 PM)Tomas Wrote:
(10-02-2021, 05:06 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: Might be easier on the eyes to use Bible translations with up to date english next time.
recommend me a catholic version, and i will see to get a PDF of it.

I'm an spanish native speaker.
I think the standard douay rheims would suffice. Shakespeare era english is poetic and interesting but probably not ideal for debating against sedevacantists from Scripture.
Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#5
Thanks, i liked the texts of the translation, but on e-sword it appears this:

Jua 6:60  (6:61) Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard; and who can hear it? 
Jua 6:61  (6:62) But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? 
Jua 6:62  (6:63) If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 
Jua 6:63  (6:64) It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 
Jua 6:64  (6:65) But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe and who he was that would betray him. 
Jua 6:65  (6:66) And he said: Therefore did I say to you that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. 
Jua 6:66  (6:67) After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.


Seems, like it start just doing a +1 at versicle 52
In the only chapter it appears this, it's in John 6 by now.
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#6
That looks a lot like a certain Anglican Bible.
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#7
(10-02-2021, 05:06 PM)Lavenderson Wrote: Might beest easi'r on the eyes to useth bible translations with up to date english next timeth
Good point.

English to Shakespearean Translator ― LingoJam
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#8
(10-03-2021, 09:59 AM)Marmot Wrote: That looks a lot like a certain Anglican Bible.


And probably it is an anglican Bible. It's called "Bishop". It was the first free version i got on the e-sword software.

Now i got the recommended one.
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