Amazing how the last 70 years has brought forth so many saintly popes?
#11
(10-14-2021, 02:48 PM)Paul Wrote:
(10-14-2021, 01:53 PM)J Michael Wrote: Isn't Roman Catholic teaching that the canonizations are infallible?

No. That's the general opinion of theologians, but it's never been decided. There's also disagreement on what the infallible part is. Does it mean that the person lived a life of heroic virtue and is worthy of emulation, or only that the person is in heaven?


It’s conceivable that  this will be a source of conflict in the future, once more pressing matters are dealt with. 

The Novus Ordo era has popes just as saintly as the Early Church, somehow. 

Comparing the impact of the two sets of popes, they don’t exactly match up. Eventually, the future scholars will have to admit that Vat. II negatively impacted Christianity in the Western World. Fifty years from now, there will be little to no attachment to 20th century issues. 

I’m guessing that procedural differences will be cited as a mark of fraud, but that’s speculation, obviously. 

I wonder if the popes will even be controversial? They might be removed without fuss. However, the last five popes have gone out of their way to open up the communion of saints to non-Western people. I’m not suggesting that is a bad thing, but Catholics from Africa and Asia will be much more prominent probably, and that may come with a shift in focus. Again, speculation.
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#12
(10-14-2021, 02:48 PM)Paul Wrote:
(10-14-2021, 01:53 PM)J Michael Wrote: Isn't Roman Catholic teaching that the canonizations are infallible?

No. That's the general opinion of theologians, but it's never been decided. There's also disagreement on what the infallible part is. Does it mean that the person lived a life of heroic virtue and is worthy of emulation, or only that the person is in heaven?
I seem to remember asking the same question on this board a number of years ago and being told in no uncertain terms that canonizations were, in fact, infallible.  Maybe I'm mis-remembering, though.

Having done a little searching that pretty much confirms what you say, I'm left with these questions: a) do canonizations *need* to be infallible, and b) if they are *not* infallible, how do you know who really is a saint and who isn't?
"I'm an old man now and have had a great many problems.  Most of them never happened."~ Mark Twain

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#13
(10-14-2021, 01:53 PM)J Michael Wrote:
(10-14-2021, 12:11 PM)Margaret-Mary Wrote:
(10-14-2021, 04:29 AM)leogirl7 Wrote: They may be in heaven and have miracles attributed to to them …

Something I haven’t understood about these recent Saints — once canonized, are we supposed to trust that the really are Saints in Heaven? (This is a sincere question.)
Isn't Roman Catholic teaching that the canonizations are infallible? 

If you don't trust that they are really saints are you not then saying  that you don't believe in the infallibility of the Pope and/or the Magisterium, and are, therefore, according to Roman Catholic teaching, anathema?  Am I wrong about that?


It’s not that I, personally, don’t trust that. I’ve seen SO MUCH criticism (not all of it unjustified) about saint-making since the time of JPII’s pontificate on, it seems like some are saying, or at least implying, the canonizations couldn’t (or shouldn’t) be valid. So my question was, do they or don’t they have to be valid. Thank you for making it clear.
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#14
(10-14-2021, 03:26 PM)TheGhostlyOne Wrote:
(10-14-2021, 02:48 PM)Paul Wrote: I’m guessing that procedural differences will be cited as a mark of fraud, but that’s speculation, obviously. 

…They might be removed without fuss. ..,,

See, here’s a good example of why it’s not 100% clear to me. If a Saint can be removed, dies that mean they weren’t in Heaven? But if the Church said they were, didn't they have to be? When tgey get removed, do they get exiled from Heaven? Or is it that they were never there? QUESTIONS!
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#15
(10-14-2021, 04:31 PM)Margaret-Mary Wrote: If a Saint can be removed, dies that mean they weren’t in Heaven? But if the Church said they were, didn't they have to be? When tgey get removed, do they get exiled from Heaven? Or is it that they were never there? QUESTIONS!

There is a quantitative difference between 'removing' a Saint and 'deemphasising' a Saint. The former has only been done in a very few cases where it seems likely that the person actually never existed or that their deeds are purely mythological. The latter has been done much more often by simply removing them from the Universal Calendar. Then they no longer have a Feast Day and they eventually become virtually unknown. Well, unless you're St Christopher who has a massive cultus both inside the Church and out.

Obviously, if they never existed, they were never in heaven. If they are deemphasised it says nothing about whether they enjoy the Beatific Vision.
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#16
(10-14-2021, 03:57 AM)Sed libera nos Wrote: Do you find it amazing how the last 70 years has brought forth so many saintly popes? 

I have maintained ever since the canonisation of JPII that it is an attempt to 'canonise' the Council. Whether or not they are in heaven is far above my paygrade, but in the past, the Church canonised Saints as role models to be emulated by members of the Church Militant. I pray to God that no Priest, Bishop, or Pope ever takes one of the post-Conciliar Popes as a role model. I think that the verdict of history will be that the succession since John XXIII has been one of the worst series of Popes in the long history of the Church, equal in the damage done to the Popes of the Pornocracy and the Renaissance Popes.
Jovan-Marya of the Immaculate Conception Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog.)” 
St Bernard of Clairvaux

My Blog 'Musings of an Old Curmudgeon'
FishEaters Group on MeWe
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#17
One really big thing to remember... the church is not the one that decides who enters heaven or not. Infact, there are very few definitive, without a doubt cases where we know for sure they are in heaven. Mary is one of them. The church states officially that they are most likely in heaven, worthy of emulating their lives, seeking their help has proven to be good (something the points towards possibility of being in heaven vs not), but to my knowledge, when the church declares a person as a saint, they are not saying it infallible because we dont know. That is for God to decide, He alone. Unless we have divine intervention where He tells us, or someone from heaven like Mary, that such and such a person is in fact in heaven, then we done know.

The church is promised infallibility in stating faith and doctrine. Someone being declared a saint is a matter of procedure, examination of their life. It is not a faith based or dogmatic thing (ie, a necessity for getting to heaven to believe in each saint). It is an aid to pray to the saints, but not a requirement (like the rosary is an immense aid, yet it is still not a requirement).
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#18
(10-14-2021, 01:53 PM)Bataar Wrote:
(10-14-2021, 12:11 PM)Margaret-Mary Wrote:
(10-14-2021, 04:29 AM)leogirl7 Wrote: They may be in heaven and have miracles attributed to to them …

Something I haven’t understood about these recent Saints — once canonized, are we supposed to trust that the really are Saints in Heaven? (This is a sincere question.)
Yes. In both the Catholic church and Novus Ordo church, canonizations are considered infallible.

Um, there's only one Church. The Catholic Church is ONE, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic
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#19
(10-14-2021, 01:53 PM)Bataar Wrote:
(10-14-2021, 12:11 PM)Margaret-Mary Wrote:
(10-14-2021, 04:29 AM)leogirl7 Wrote: They may be in heaven and have miracles attributed to to them …

Something I haven’t understood about these recent Saints — once canonized, are we supposed to trust that the really are Saints in Heaven? (This is a sincere question.)
Yes. In both the Catholic church and Novus Ordo church, canonizations are considered infallible.
Do you have a citation for that?

(Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, there is no "Novus Ordo church".  There is the Catholic Church, with various liturgical rites, but it's all One Church.)
"I'm an old man now and have had a great many problems.  Most of them never happened."~ Mark Twain

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug."~Mark Knopfler (?)
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