Why are Evangelical Christians Obsessed with Israel?
#21
Because they assume that Eretz Yisroel and spiritual Israel (which is actually the Catholic Church) are the same, and so think that the references in the New Testament to spiritual Israel are actually talking about Eretz Yisroel, a country which came into existence ~1900 years after the NT was written.
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#22
(10-20-2021, 02:22 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(10-19-2021, 08:58 PM)newenglandsun Wrote: They think the notion that the Scriptural teaching that Israel has been made New in the Church is antisemitic and Hitlerian and cannot differentiate between an ethnic Jew and a religious Jew.

I'm reminded of a time years ago that I gave an Evangelical friend an article pointing out that Rabbinic Talmudism as practised today is not the sacrificial religion of the Church of the Old Covenant. He read it, gave it back to me, and said, 'That was written by a Nazi'.
Sometimes hearing it straight from horses mouth is the only way to get them:

“This is not an uncommon impression and one finds it sometimes among Jews as well as Christians – that Judaism is the religion of the Hebrew Bible. It is, of course, a fallacious impression. Judaism is not the religion of the Bible.”

– Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser, Judaism and the Christian Predicament, New York : Alfred A. Knopf, 1967, p. 59.

“…[You] will notice the great difference between the Jewish and Christian religions. But these are not all. We consider the two religions so different that one excludes the other. …we emphasized that there is no such thing as a Judeo-Christian religion. There is not any similarity between the two concepts.”

– Rabbi Moshe M. Maggal (President, National Jewish Information Service) letter, 21 August 1961.

“Judaism was not evolved in Judah; it was in Babylon that Judaism first became that which it was and still is.”

– “The Hebrew Peoples” written by Jewish authors Dr. H. Winckler, L.M. King, Dr. R. G. Brandis, and H. R. Hall. On pages 1781-4, Vol. 3, appearing in Harmsworth’s “History of the World”

“The return from Babylon [following the Captivity, about 538 B.C.], and the adoption of the Babylonian Talmud, marks the end of Hebrewism, and the beginning of Judaism.”

Roger Rusk, The Other End of the World: An Alternate Theory Linking Prophecy and History (Plano, Texas: Le Book Company, Inc., 1988), 182.
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#23
Thanks for this.
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#24
(11-01-2021, 10:19 PM)Lavenderson Wrote:
(10-20-2021, 02:22 AM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(10-19-2021, 08:58 PM)newenglandsun Wrote: They think the notion that the Scriptural teaching that Israel has been made New in the Church is antisemitic and Hitlerian and cannot differentiate between an ethnic Jew and a religious Jew.

I'm reminded of a time years ago that I gave an Evangelical friend an article pointing out that Rabbinic Talmudism as practised today is not the sacrificial religion of the Church of the Old Covenant. He read it, gave it back to me, and said, 'That was written by a Nazi'.
Sometimes hearing it straight from horses mouth is the only way to get them:

“This is not an uncommon impression and one finds it sometimes among Jews as well as Christians – that Judaism is the religion of the Hebrew Bible. It is, of course, a fallacious impression. Judaism is not the religion of the Bible.”

– Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser, Judaism and the Christian Predicament, New York : Alfred A. Knopf, 1967, p. 59.

“…[You] will notice the great difference between the Jewish and Christian religions. But these are not all. We consider the two religions so different that one excludes the other. …we emphasized that there is no such thing as a Judeo-Christian religion. There is not any similarity between the two concepts.”

– Rabbi Moshe M. Maggal (President, National Jewish Information Service) letter, 21 August 1961.

“Judaism was not evolved in Judah; it was in Babylon that Judaism first became that which it was and still is.”

– “The Hebrew Peoples” written by Jewish authors Dr. H. Winckler, L.M. King, Dr. R. G. Brandis, and H. R. Hall. On pages 1781-4, Vol. 3, appearing in Harmsworth’s “History of the World”

“The return from Babylon [following the Captivity, about 538 B.C.], and the adoption of the Babylonian Talmud, marks the end of Hebrewism, and the beginning of Judaism.”

Roger Rusk, The Other End of the World: An Alternate Theory Linking Prophecy and History (Plano, Texas: Le Book Company, Inc., 1988), 182.

you should be careful with how much stock you personally put in these quotations. At least a couple of them commit you to the idea that the Old Testament authors were different religions from each other. These are of course revisionist writers. I do agree that rabbinical Judaism and Christianity are both rival claimants to be in continuity w/ 2nd temple Judaism and cannot both be true. That is a good point. Our Lord cannot both be and not be the Messiah.
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#25
(10-20-2021, 03:41 AM)Marmot Wrote:
(10-20-2021, 02:22 AM)jovan66102 Wrote: 'That was written by a Nazi'.
What does it matter?

because the level of bias that a Nazi would have about all topics Jew related would be such that one should not trust anything he says. Caring about credibility and the Genitive  fallacy are not the same thing. Heidegger and Ezra Pound were a bit Nazi. Decent poet, worth reading philosopher...but I wouldn’t have time to engage a historical argument about anything from them. I can only engage so many texts.
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#26
(11-03-2021, 03:20 PM)Username1 Wrote: you should be careful with how much stock you personally put in these quotations. At least a couple of them commit you to the idea that the Old Testament authors were different religions from each other. These are of course revisionist writers. I do agree that rabbinical Judaism and Christianity are both rival claimants to be in continuity w/ 2nd temple Judaism and cannot both be true. That is a good point. Our Lord cannot both be and not be the Messiah.
Not the Old Testament, but the authors of the torah versus the talmud were most certainly of different religions, and I doubt the talmud or pharisees sprang out of nowhere.
Gentle Star of ocean!
Portal of the sky!
Ever Virgin Mother
Of the Lord most High!

Shew thyself a Mother;
Offer him our sighs,
Who for us Incarnate
Did not thee despise.

Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#27
(11-06-2021, 09:15 PM)Lavenderson Wrote:
(11-03-2021, 03:20 PM)Username1 Wrote: you should be careful with how much stock you personally put in these quotations. At least a couple of them commit you to the idea that the Old Testament authors were different religions from each other. These are of course revisionist writers. I do agree that rabbinical Judaism and Christianity are both rival claimants to be in continuity w/ 2nd temple Judaism and cannot both be true. That is a good point. Our Lord cannot both be and not be the Messiah.
Not the Old Testament, but the authors of the torah versus the talmud were most certainly of different religions, and I doubt the talmud or pharisees sprang out of nowhere.

Well, that’s not really what you cited though. The authors you cited are very clear. They believe that pre-exilic and post-exilic Judaism are different religions— and that means the biblical canon is by authors of different religions. And I think there’s probably a lot more to unpack that informs your approach and mine differently, but I’ll leave it at that.
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#28
Evangelicals are "obsessed" with Israel bcoz for once, they have interpreted the Scriptures correctly - Romans 11, for example, which says God has not forgotten the unbelieving Jews and will remove their unbelief when "the fullness of the Gentiles come in", then "all Israel" will be saved". 

Furthermore, why did the Holocaust occur?  The answer is, it was a demonic attempt to prevent the fulfillment of prophesy, which says Christ will not return until the nation of Israel is reborn (which occurred in 1948).  Obviously, if all the Jews of the world were exterminated (in gas chambers for example) then the nation of Israel could never be reborn and Christ could not return.
  Well, as it turned out, this demonic attempt to prevent the return of Christ backfired, bcoz it actually hastened the rebith of the nation of Israel.  Come on, it ain't rocket science!

And how is it that tiny little Israel has managed to survive repeated attempts by the surrounding Muslim hordes to destroy her?  How is that tiny little Israel has nuclear weapons and has the USA (and others) as allies?   Well, God is protecting her, of course.  As Romans 11:1-2 says, by no means has God rejected "his people whom he foreknew."
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#29
While it is true many are obsessed with Israel, you will be surprised by how much they reject pre Christ Jewish authority. They refuse to recognize the Pharisees bound and loosed doctrine, and that this power has now been given to the church. They believe the Jewish Sanhedrin to have no authority to interpret scripture, and to them, the Jews had Been wrong for thousands of years for putting tradition on par with scripture. So they basically prop Israel up when it suits them. Like accepting the Jewish Bible canon. But anything that hints at “authority” outside of the Bible resting on the Jewish OT leaders, they reject.
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#30
(01-24-2022, 08:12 AM)AnthonyB Wrote: Furthermore, why did the Holocaust occur?  The answer is, it was a demonic attempt to prevent the fulfillment of prophesy, which says Christ will not return until the nation of Israel is reborn (which occurred in 1948).

The nation of Israel, in the spiritual sense, is the people chosen by God, which has been the Catholic Church for almost 2000 years now. Evangelicals have no authority to interpret Scripture; only the Church does, and the Church has never taught the necessity for a political nation for the Jews in order for the world to end. If God wants to return and end it all, He can - He doesn't depend on human politics to trigger it for Him.
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