Millions of Muslims are Converting to Christianity?
#21
So you deny that Protestants in invincible ignorance can keep the Commandments and live the Gospel?  You're saying that they never do God's will in their lives just because they're not Catholics?  That's erroneous.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
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#22
(12-06-2021, 08:26 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(12-06-2021, 07:56 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: You're implying that these converts are not doing God's will and living out the Gospel in their lives.  How do you know this?
Because if they're becoming protestant heretics, ipso facto, they are not doing God's will because God wills that all men become Catholics.

This thread has raised some questions for me.  The Council of Trent teaches us that initial justification is the complete free gift of God, and this comes through the sacrament of baptism.  Correct?  Yet, Protestants have a valid baptism.  No one can repent and seek baptism unless moved by the grace of God.  How, then, can the prospective Protestant receive the grace to seek a valid baptism among heretics and schismatics?
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#23
Some people in this thread are coming dangerously close to Feeneyism, which is condemned by the Church.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
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#24
(12-06-2021, 08:56 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: Some people in this thread are coming dangerously close to Feeneyism, which is condemned by the Church.

To be clear, I denounce Feeneyism and affirm that some Protestants, those in invincible ignorance, can be saved if they keep the commandments and die in a state of grace.

My question in post #22 is a genuine one.  If I am understanding initial justification correctly, a Protestant cannot have been baptized unless the grace of God moved him to do so.  That would seem to imply that God is working in some mysterious ways, and perhaps these Muslims are receiving authentic dreams of Christ.
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#25
Some have a valid baptism, but none of them have a proper understanding of baptism and its place in the Christian life and the ordinary means of salvation. Some theologians suggest that even acts of natural virtue in many circumstances arise out of cooperating with an actual grace, so it makes sense that an actual grace has led a man to baptism. However, that faulty understanding will most likely hinder the good that comes from the grace of justification received.
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#26
(12-06-2021, 07:56 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote:
piscis Wrote:"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." Mt. 7:21-23

You're implying that these converts are not doing God's will and living out the Gospel in their lives.  How do you know this?

I implied nothing and know nothing about these converts or even whether they are converts. I merely quoted Our Lord's words, Who is stating a fact, just as you quoted the words of St. Paul, who stated a fact. Are you implying that Our Lord was wrong when He said not all who profess His Name will be saved? How do you know this?

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#27
Don't play games with me.  You were clearly implying that these converts do not do God's will.  Jovan even seconded you.  I was assuming nothing.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
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#28
(12-06-2021, 09:57 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: Don't play games with me.  You were clearly implying that these converts do not do God's will.  Jovan even seconded you.  I was assuming nothing.
And I stand by my statement. Do you deny that it is God's will that all men become Catholic or are you implying that they can be saved in their heresy as a general rule (a la Bishop 'Dare We Hope' Barron)?
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#29
(12-06-2021, 10:37 PM)jovan66102 Wrote:
(12-06-2021, 09:57 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: Don't play games with me.  You were clearly implying that these converts do not do God's will.  Jovan even seconded you.  I was assuming nothing.
And I stand by my statement. Do you deny that it is God's will that all men become Catholic or are you implying that they can be saved in their heresy as a general rule (a la Bishop 'Dare We Hope' Barron)?

I'm not sure those are the only options.  I entered this thread fairly certain that I knew what was going with these dreams but now I've got more questions than anything.  While it is certainly God's will that all men become Catholic, he also allows for some to be saved despite this.  One does not need to assume a "dare we hope" universalism in order to consider the possibility that God might, in certain circumstances, will that a Muslim receive baptism in some nondenominational group and save them through invincible ignorance.  Baptism is the cause of our initial justification and, if I am understanding the Council of Trent correctly, that can only come by God's grace.
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#30
jovan66102 Wrote:
Clare Brigid Wrote:Don't play games with me.  You were clearly implying that these converts do not do God's will.  Jovan even seconded you.  I was assuming nothing.
And I stand by my statement. Do you deny that it is God's will that all men become Catholic or are you implying that they can be saved in their heresy as a general rule (a la Bishop 'Dare We Hope' Barron)?

I believe the teaching of the Catholic Church that many people do not become Catholics due to invincible ignorance, and that these can be validly baptized and do God's will.  This is Catholicism, not universalism.  You, on the other hand, are flirting with Feeneyism.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
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