Millions of Muslims are Converting to Christianity?
#41
(12-07-2021, 10:49 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: Yes, of course, and this teaching must be understood in light of the Church's teaching on invincible ignorance.  "Absolutely necessary," as it turns out, is more nuanced than a simple reading of "Unam Sanctam."
The teaching of invincible ignorance must be understood in light of the infallible dogma of EENS, not vica versa. EENS is the big enchilada here, not invincible ignorance. St. Thomas Aquinas describes invincible ignorance much differently than I understood it initially and how I believe its understood by some in this thread. "Absolutely necessary," dare I say, is less nuanced than you probably think.
Gentle Star of ocean!
Portal of the sky!
Ever Virgin Mother
Of the Lord most High!

Shew thyself a Mother;
Offer him our sighs,
Who for us Incarnate
Did not thee despise.

Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
Reply
#42
(12-08-2021, 01:20 AM)Lavenderson Wrote:
(12-07-2021, 10:49 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: Yes, of course, and this teaching must be understood in light of the Church's teaching on invincible ignorance.  "Absolutely necessary," as it turns out, is more nuanced than a simple reading of "Unam Sanctam."
The teaching of invincible ignorance must be understood in light of the infallible dogma of EENS, not vica versa. EENS is the big enchilada here, not invincible ignorance. St. Thomas Aquinas describes invincible ignorance much differently than I understood it initially and how I believe its understood by some in this thread. "Absolutely necessary," dare I say, is less nuanced than you probably think.

Honestly, I'm not interested in Feeneyism.
Reply
#43
So some people here think almost all Protestants are going to hell.

I cannot reconcile this position with the Jesus I know from the Gospels.  For instance:  "And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name, and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. [50] And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not; for he that is not against you, is for you."  Jesus overlooked differences and went to the heart of the matter.  Were you against Him or for Him?  I cannot imagine Him saying that sincere Protestants are against Him and condemning them to hell.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Clare Brigid's post:
  • Grandma
Reply
#44
Luke 9:49-50.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
Reply
#45
(12-08-2021, 12:34 AM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(12-08-2021, 12:30 AM)benedicite Wrote: Has anyone seen any of these videos or heard of Pfander Films? He has an interesting take on the origins of the Quran and Islam.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL...lkONcvW-Yd

I can't say that I have.  Can you give a brief summary of his take on Islamic/Quranic origins?
His take is that the origin of the was not as we are told it was. We are told that Mohammed received the Quran from God in some type of revelation. According to them there are several versions of the Quran. That in its final form about 1/4 of the Quran in its Arabic form makes no sense in Arabic. But if you transliterate it into Syrian Aramaic it make sense and it is a Christian hymnal with some hymns being attributable to St Ephrem, among others.
Reply
#46
(12-08-2021, 01:52 AM)Clare Brigid Wrote: So some people here think almost all Protestants are going to hell.

I cannot reconcile this position with the Jesus I know from the Gospels.  For instance:  "And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name, and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. [50] And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not; for he that is not against you, is for you."  Jesus overlooked differences and went to the heart of the matter.  Were you against Him or for Him?  I cannot imagine Him saying that sincere Protestants are against Him and condemning them to hell.
From the Baltimore Catechism;

[b]Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?[/b]
A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

[b]Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the CatholicChurch to be the true Church?[/b]
A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.



https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resou...the-church
Reply
#47
(12-08-2021, 02:48 AM)benedicite Wrote:
(12-08-2021, 12:34 AM)SeekerofChrist Wrote:
(12-08-2021, 12:30 AM)benedicite Wrote: Has anyone seen any of these videos or heard of Pfander Films? He has an interesting take on the origins of the Quran and Islam.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL...lkONcvW-Yd

I can't say that I have.  Can you give a brief summary of his take on Islamic/Quranic origins?
His take is that the origin of the was not as we are told it was. We are told that Mohammed received the Quran from God in some type of revelation. According to them there are several versions of the Quran. That in its final form about 1/4 of the Quran in its Arabic form makes no sense in Arabic. But if you transliterate it into Syrian Aramaic it make sense and it is a Christian hymnal with some hymns being attributable to St Ephrem, among others.

That's interesting.  I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the historical Mohammed might have been an Ebionite prophet, and his religion slowly evolved into the Islam we all know.  I suppose that might be possible, as most of Islamic law and practice is drawn from the Sunnah (tradition) of the "Prophet."  And that is mostly found in the collection of narratives (Hadith) put together a couple hundred years or so after the death of Mohammed.  Virtually nothing is none of his life outside those writings, which are numerous and often very contradictory.
Reply
#48
(12-08-2021, 03:02 AM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: Virtually nothing is none of his life outside those writings, which are numerous and often very contradictory.

*known

I'm tired.  Goodnight, friends.
[-] The following 1 user Likes SeekerofChrist's post:
  • jovan66102
Reply
#49
(12-08-2021, 01:52 AM)Clare Brigid Wrote: So some people here think almost all Protestants are going to hell.

I cannot reconcile this position with the Jesus I know from the Gospels.  For instance:  "And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name, and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. [50] And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not; for he that is not against you, is for you."  Jesus overlooked differences and went to the heart of the matter.  Were you against Him or for Him?  I cannot imagine Him saying that sincere Protestants are against Him and condemning them to hell.
Are you certain Luke 9:49 means what you think it means? I doubt anyone here rejects that God can perform miracles and give grace outside the visible boundaries of the institutional structure of the Church, otherwise how would non-Catholics convert? But what I dont think the verse implies is "therefore guilt of remaining outside of the Church is omitted so long as there is a hint Christianity present." Shedding blood in the name of Christ isn't even enough for salvation if you die remaining outside the Church, this was dogmatically proclaimed in the Council of Florence.

In the words of Fr. Gregory Hesse, protestants are not separated brethren, they are enemies of Christ. They are against His teachings and His Church. Sincere protestants become Catholics, and those remaining protestant are in some way rejecting the grace God is giving them to enter into His Church; no matter how sincere they appear to us God sees what we cant. No one truly seeking God with genuine heart will be deprived of the Church or knowledge of the truth of Catholicism, because if you think invincible ignorance means that God is incapable of making Himself known to His creation, or incapable of prompting His own created beings (whom He created for heaven) to find out about Him, what are you saying about God? A non Catholic sincere and ready to obey God wont be given the means to know the way in which God determined salvation to be attained?

St Augustine: "And the ignorance of those things of salvation, the knowledge of which men did not care to have is without doubt, a sin for them; but for those who were not able to acquire such knowledge, the want of it is a punishment for their sins." 

St.Thomas Aquinas: "Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in his infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance."

Ignorance can be invincible to overcome only for us, not God. Remaining ignorant and dying ignorant is a sign that in your ignorance of the Faith you were also not of a sincere heart for truth, otherwise you would have responded accordingly to the grace and means provided by God. Again, invincible ignorance needs to be understood in light of EENS, not vica versa.
Gentle Star of ocean!
Portal of the sky!
Ever Virgin Mother
Of the Lord most High!

Shew thyself a Mother;
Offer him our sighs,
Who for us Incarnate
Did not thee despise.

Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
Reply
#50
I don't obey Fr. Gregory Hesse.  I obey the Magisterium of the Church.  And the Magisterium does not teach that Protestants are enemies of Christ.  Read the CDF document Dominus Iesus.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
[-] The following 1 user Likes Clare Brigid's post:
  • SeekerofChrist
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)