Millions of Muslims are Converting to Christianity?
#51
(12-08-2021, 02:07 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: I don't obey Fr. Gregory Hesse.  I obey the Magisterium of the Church.  And the Magisterium does not teach that Protestants are enemies of Christ.  Read the CDF document Dominus Iesus.
Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos 13: "there is one God, one faith, one baptism... those who are not with Christ are against Him..."

If someone is against Truth, an enemy sounds pretty accurate.
Gentle Star of ocean!
Portal of the sky!
Ever Virgin Mother
Of the Lord most High!

Shew thyself a Mother;
Offer him our sighs,
Who for us Incarnate
Did not thee despise.

Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#52
(12-08-2021, 07:52 PM)Lavenderson Wrote:
(12-08-2021, 02:07 PM)Clare Brigid Wrote: I don't obey Fr. Gregory Hesse.  I obey the Magisterium of the Church.  And the Magisterium does not teach that Protestants are enemies of Christ.  Read the CDF document Dominus Iesus.
Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos 13: "there is one God, one faith, one baptism... those who are not with Christ are against Him..."

If someone is against Truth, an enemy sounds pretty accurate.

From Blessed Pius IX's "Quanto Conficiamur Moerore":

Quote:7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: “If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;”[5] “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;”[6] “He who does not believe will be condemned;”[7] “He who does not believe is already condemned;”[8] “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.”[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are “perverted and self-condemned;”[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them “false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.”[11]

9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.

The Protestant enemy of Christ is one who knows fully well that he must be joined to the Roman Pontiff, yet stubbornly refuses to do so.  I can imagine many reasons why someone might do that: pride, stubbornness, fear of ridicule or family backlash, etc.  People commit evil for many reasons, most of them quite foolish.  We should strive, as Blessed Pius IX tells us in paragraph 9, to charitably reach the Protestants and bring them into the true Church of Christ.  This isn't because Feeney is right but because Our Lord has commanded us, through the teaching of his vicar, to do so.  For those Protestants who are invincibly ignorant, it is possible, with "the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace," to receive eternal salvation.  Since I don't see how someone who dies as an enemy of Christ could possibly be saved, it cannot be the case that all Protestants are enemies of Christ.
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#53
(12-08-2021, 01:52 AM)Clare Brigid Wrote: So some people here think almost all Protestants are going to hell.

I cannot reconcile this position with the Jesus I know from the Gospels.  For instance:  "And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name, and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. [50] And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not; for he that is not against you, is for you."  Jesus overlooked differences and went to the heart of the matter.  Were you against Him or for Him?  I cannot imagine Him saying that sincere Protestants are against Him and condemning them to hell.

The Same Jesus told the rich young ruler that he could not follow him until he gave up all his possessions.  Under this standard, it is impossible to be a Catholic or any other Christian if you have money in your pocket. 

If one cannot follow Jesus, can they be saved?   

Maybe there's another savior?  (tongue in cheek)
--BobCatholic 
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#54
(12-10-2021, 03:20 PM)BobCatholic Wrote: The Same Jesus told the rich young ruler that he could not follow him until he gave up all his possessions.  Under this standard, it is impossible to be a Catholic or any other Christian if you have money in your pocket. 
 (snip)

Not so. To give up all and follow Him is what He said to do in order to be "perfect," not to be "saved"; that's where the evangelical counsels come from. See https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04435a.htm
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#55
(12-08-2021, 10:12 PM)SeekerofChrist Wrote: The Protestant enemy of Christ is one who knows fully well that he must be joined to the Roman Pontiff, yet stubbornly refuses to do so.  I can imagine many reasons why someone might do that: pride, stubbornness, fear of ridicule or family backlash, etc.  People commit evil for many reasons, most of them quite foolish.  We should strive, as Blessed Pius IX tells us in paragraph 9, to charitably reach the Protestants and bring them into the true Church of Christ.  This isn't because Feeney is right but because Our Lord has commanded us, through the teaching of his vicar, to do so.  For those Protestants who are invincibly ignorant, it is possible, with "the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace," to receive eternal salvation. Since I don't see how someone who dies as an enemy of Christ could possibly be saved, it cannot be the case that all Protestants are enemies of Christ
Although a softer tone, I dont see how one could interpret the quote as giving a pass to the invincibly ignorant, as opposed to the virtue of divine light being nothing less than the knowledge of the truth in Catholicism, which is the means by which the formally ignorant can receive salvation. In light of so many dogmatic declarations of EENS, I think the latter interpretation is bordering on obligatory. Not surprising to me when I found this out, Pope Pius IX used tougher language in his Syllabus of Errors the following year where he condemned these statements:

"15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. — Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.

16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. — Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. — Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc."

Pope Innocent II centuries ago also condemned:

The Errors of Peter Abelard, Condemned by Innocent II, “That they have not sinned who being ignorant have crucified Christ, and that whatever is done through ignorance must not be considered sin.”

What a protestants subjective disposition is, only God knows. But objectively, they are indeed enemies who will perish unless they recant because their actions go against Christ, knowingly or not. The ignorance of their interior disposition isnt a sin itself because their ignorance is likely already a punishment for previous sin, as I quoted St.Augustine saying before. If they dont amend their life to the degree that they can in that state, they wont be given the virtue of divine light and grace to be pulled from the ignorance they cant pull themselves out of. Ignorance doesn't give anyone a pass, which seems to be the understanding of some folks. Very dangerous I think
Gentle Star of ocean!
Portal of the sky!
Ever Virgin Mother
Of the Lord most High!

Shew thyself a Mother;
Offer him our sighs,
Who for us Incarnate
Did not thee despise.

Through the highest heaven,
To the Almighty Three,
Father, Son, and Spirit,
One same glory be. Amen
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#56
(12-11-2021, 12:23 AM)Lavenderson Wrote: Although a softer tone, I dont see how one could interpret the quote as giving a pass to the invincibly ignorant, as opposed to the virtue of divine light being nothing less than the knowledge of the truth in Catholicism, which is the means by which the formally ignorant can receive salvation.

That is not what Blessed Pius IX said.  First, no one said the invincibly ignorant get a pass, if by that you mean they go to Heaven solely because of invincible ignorance.  They must still follow the moral law that is written on the human heart and must die in a state of grace.  Blessed Pius IX says:

Quote:There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

He does not say that "the virtue of divine light being nothing less than the knowledge of the truth in Catholicism, which is the means by which the formally ignorant can receive salvation," as though by his divine light and grace they'll learn the truth of Catholicism.  He says that "sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life" by the virtue of that divine light and grace.  This is clearly a reference to them receiving eternal salvation while remaining in a state of invincible ignorance.  The ignorance is not removed.  It is the observance of the natural law, by God's divine light and grace, that is the means by which they can receive this eternal salvation.

Quote:In light of so many dogmatic declarations of EENS, I think the latter interpretation is bordering on obligatory.

Not only is it not obligatory, it goes against what he actually wrote.  He says very clearly that the invincibly ignorant must obey the natural law, have a readiness to obey God, and live an honest life.  This is because, as he says, God in "his supreme kindness and clemency do[es] not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."  The invincibly ignorant cannot deliberately sin by not entering the Catholic Church.  They don't know about the Catholic Church, or the necessity of entering it for eternal salvation.

Quote:"15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. — Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851."

Obviously true.  This is religious indifferentism.  Only one religion saves.  The invincibly ignorant, by virtue of having no reasonable means to remove their ignorance, cannot know this.  They are saved despite the false religion they are in, not because of it.  The invincibly ignorant that will be saved (and not all will be, just like not all Catholics will be) are saved not by their use of reason but by the divine light and grace of God.

Quote:16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. — Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.

Also true.  The invincibly ignorant do not find salvation in their false religion.  It is by observing the natural law that God has inscribed on their hearts, being open to him, and living honest lives that they may obtain eternal salvation by God's grace.

Quote:17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. — Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc."

I don't see a lot of hope that a majority of Catholics will be saved.  Much less hope for the invincibly ignorant Protestant, and even less hope for the invincibly ignorant Pagan, Jew, Muslim, etc.  Invincible ignorance is not an immediate ticket into Heaven.  The invincibly ignorant must be open enough to God that his graces will be put to good use and save their souls.

Quote:Pope Innocent II centuries ago also condemned:

The Errors of Peter Abelard, Condemned by Innocent II, “That they have not sinned who being ignorant have crucified Christ, and that whatever is done through ignorance must not be considered sin.

There are different degrees of ignorance.  In addition to invincible ignorance, there is vincible ignorance.  Vincible ignorance has different types, too.  The extent to which ignorance mitigates, or occasionally removes, guilt for a sin is determined by the type of ignorance.  Feigned ignorance or crass ignorance can actually increase culpability.  None of those can apply to invincible ignorance, as there is nothing that the person can do that would remove their ignorance.  No one can claim to be ignorant of the natural moral law because that has been written on the human heart.  EENS is by special divine revelation, not the moral law that is written on the human heart.  Those who crucified Christ, for example, were not ignorant of the moral law and knew that brutally crucifying Jesus was an act of evil.  They sinned, period.

Quote:What a protestants subjective disposition is, only God knows. But objectively, they are indeed enemies who will perish unless they recant because their actions go against Christ, knowingly or not.

If they are invincibly ignorant, Blessed Pius IX has clearly stated that God, who is supremely just, will not count them as guilty of the sin of being separated from the Roman Pontiff.  Again, he writes, "Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."  So, you are right that only God can know if someone is invincibly ignorant, and whether they have met the other conditions laid down by Pius IX.  This is why it is utterly crucial that we reach as many as we can.  Again, even a majority of Catholics will not be saved.  To hope for the best for the invincibly ignorant does them, and the Gospel, a grave disservice.  That does not, however, alter the teaching of Pius IX and the Catholic Church about how they can obtain eternal salvation despite not entering the Church (again, through no fault of their own).

Quote:The ignorance of their interior disposition isnt a sin itself because their ignorance is likely already a punishment for previous sin, as I quoted St.Augustine saying before. If they dont amend their life to the degree that they can in that state, they wont be given the virtue of divine light and grace to be pulled from the ignorance they cant pull themselves out of. Ignorance doesn't give anyone a pass, which seems to be the understanding of some folks. Very dangerous I think.

Of course it doesn't provide a free pass.  Invincible ignorance means only that they are not committing a mortal sin by not entering the Catholic Church.  I doubt many of the invincibly ignorant will obey the natural law, be open to God, and lead honest lives that keep them in a state of grace.  We must reach as many as possible!  But we cannot eliminate the distinctions between different types of ignorance, the effects they have on culpability for sin, and what the Church has clearly taught through popes like Blessed Pius IX about the possibility (however remote it might be) for their salvation.

To Clare: I'm sorry, this probably isn't very succinct. ;)
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#57
(12-10-2021, 06:17 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote:
(12-10-2021, 03:20 PM)BobCatholic Wrote: The Same Jesus told the rich young ruler that he could not follow him until he gave up all his possessions.  Under this standard, it is impossible to be a Catholic or any other Christian if you have money in your pocket. 
 (snip)

Not so. To give up all and follow Him is what He said to do in order to be "perfect," not to be "saved"; that's where the evangelical counsels come from. See https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04435a.htm

Reading St. Leonard of Port Lucie's sermon gave me a contrary message to that newadvent article.   With so few being saved, I wonder if I have any hope.
--BobCatholic 
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#58
(12-12-2021, 12:36 AM)BobCatholic Wrote:
(12-10-2021, 06:17 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote:
(12-10-2021, 03:20 PM)BobCatholic Wrote: The Same Jesus told the rich young ruler that he could not follow him until he gave up all his possessions.  Under this standard, it is impossible to be a Catholic or any other Christian if you have money in your pocket. 
 (snip)

Not so. To give up all and follow Him is what He said to do in order to be "perfect," not to be "saved"; that's where the evangelical counsels come from. See https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04435a.htm

Reading St. Leonard of Port Lucie's sermon gave me a contrary message to that newadvent article.   With so few being saved, I wonder if I have any hope.

Persevere...Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#59
(12-12-2021, 12:36 AM)BobCatholic Wrote:
(12-10-2021, 06:17 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote:
(12-10-2021, 03:20 PM)BobCatholic Wrote: The Same Jesus told the rich young ruler that he could not follow him until he gave up all his possessions.  Under this standard, it is impossible to be a Catholic or any other Christian if you have money in your pocket. 
 (snip)

Not so. To give up all and follow Him is what He said to do in order to be "perfect," not to be "saved"; that's where the evangelical counsels come from. See https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04435a.htm

Reading St. Leonard of Port Lucie's sermon gave me a contrary message to that newadvent article.   With so few being saved, I wonder if I have any hope.

This can be a downside to the commonly accepted idea that only a small handful will be saved.  It can generate despair.  I'd say that, instead of focusing on the fewness of the saved, one should instead focus on what it takes for oneself to be saved.  As JacafamalaRedux has pointed out, it isn't too difficult.  Go to Confession, go to Mass, receive Our Lord in the Eucharist, pray the Rosary, etc.  I also recommend a daily act of contrition.  Pray for perfect contrition.
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#60
According to Our Lady's promises, praying the rosary daily is a great sign of predestination.

St. Alphonsus Liguori said that he who prays is saved.
"[I]t is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal."  Pope St. Pius X.

"If anyone deludes himself by thinking he is serving God, when he has not learned to control his tongue, the service he gives is vain.  If he is to offer service pure and unblemished in the sight of God, who is our Father, he must take care of orphans and widows in their need, and keep himself unstained by the world."  James 1:26-27.
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