Fresh milk is illegal and you cannot take milk from your own cow!
Quote:I have learned that at least some of the mods of FE lack intellecual integrity.
Quote: deleting the posts was lacking in intellectual honesty, not disagreing with me. 
That's not what you said. Your comment regarding "some of the mods" was a direct jab at me. I didn't delete anything. In fact, I was very upset when I discovered that not only your hard work, but my own hard work (and everyone else's for that matter) was flushed down the drain - which is against forum rules.
Personally, I do not entertain self-righteous huffs.  Nothing said here is going to change the world, fortunately or unfortunately.  So, if it isn't saved for posterity, oh well.  It's not like we have the next Plato or St. Thomas posting here.
If it's worth saying once, it's worth saying again.  If not, then it probably wasn't worth saying in the first place.
As far as the mods and Vox goes, I've had stuff deleted that I've said.  Big deal.  In retrospect 80%+ should have been deleted because it was bickering and no useful point was being made.  If I want to be a wanker I can always get a blog.  Until then, I submit to their judgment even though I'm right and they're wrong [Image: wink.gif]
For the record, which seems able to be deleted at the drop of a hat, I assumed only moderators could remove posts. I was incorrect in this assumption.

I for the life of me cannot understand why people cannot actually read what I wrote. I never brought up the goverment once in this thread except to say that what they did was wrong. I am not defending an overzealous Ohio Dept of Ag. I am defending that pasturization is not some wicked process that turns milk into some sort of poison. I never said raw milk was bad, only that it has less shelf life. I think some people are in a "self-rightous" huff over milk. There are so many better things to argue about.

As far as quackary goes, it is a topic worth discussing. Quackary is not allowed in court, just as hearsay and polygraphs are usually not allowed. If this argument came to trial, and this is something I have professional experience with, all the journals I submitted could be considered. Many of the sources cited by others in this thread would not be considered for the following: outright bias, monetary gain from the finings, etc. I am not going to waste time turning sophistic quack articles inside out. Besides, there are always more quacks than people willing to fight them. You get nothing for exposing a quack other than the scorn of the quack and his followers. The people that had not yet been deceived by the quack never thank you.

Deleting a post is like burning a book. Though it may be appropriate sometimes, it seemed to me at the time that Jleigh, which is a mod, was using her mod power to supress my refutations of her points and catholicmilkman's points for that matter.

It's called bullying. It is a big deal.

It turns out that it was not a mod who did it; it was just somebody who breaks the forum rules. Also, 80% of what I wrote was not bickering. I never once attacked anybody personally and with the greatest word economy prossible endeavored to argue my points.
argaddini Wrote:QuisUtDeus,
It turns out that it was not a mod who did it; it was just somebody who breaks the forum rules. Also, 80% of what I wrote was not bickering. I never once attacked anybody personally and with the greatest word economy prossible endeavored to argue my points.

The 80% wasn't directed towards you.  I meant 80% of my postings that got deleted should have been deleted, and I was speaking in general and not about the milk thread in particular.  Sorry for the confusion.
I appologize; I don't think I was being charitable enough in my reading. I may be developing a complex here. I better stop with this thread! :chainsaw:
For what it's worth, I found excellent points made in both agraddini and JLeigh's posts (as I'm betting most other readers did too). I also found personal attacks in both posters submissions (ironic choice of words, eh?) to this thread. As for catholicmilkman, while I'm guessing his intentions were good, I too, was stunned when I found he had deleted the thread. Well, live and learn. I've had posts deleted by mods too, Quis...rather humbling, isn't it? :)
agradinni, I've been trying to formulate this thought in my head and put it into words, which I'm not very good at, unfortunately, but here goes anyway: I think more and more people are becoming suspect of the "acceptable" or "prestigious" medical/scientific community and it's journals, especially women, who have been one of a majority group of victims of bad medical advice and treatment--or lack thereof--in respect to their femaleness (as most research until fairly recently has focused on male subjects) since time immemorial. (think hormone replacement therapy, mastectomy and other forms of cancers "treatment", contraceptive therapies for everything from polycystic ovary syndrome to PMS to cramps.) Also, there is now a fast-growing shift to natural, organic, holistic and homeopathic health practices. This is a very good thing, imo. A huge reason for this shift is "Big Pharma"...who are trying to control everyone from the health insurance companies, to the physicians whom they wine and dine at disgusting levels, to the media who advertise their products to us "poor slobs who don't know any better" because we're not degreed scientists.
I really need to find the article again that exposed the recruiting practices for pharmaceutical reps being the same as those used for Playboy playmates. I find it so disheartening that the highly and multi-specialty degreed endocrinologist I've been seeing for two months now (who still hasn't determined what my problem/s is/are despite numerous tests and ridiculously mounting medical/laboratory bills) has had in his office EVERY time I've gone to see him (8 times now) no less than 4 pharmacy reps visiting him (whom the majority, co-incidentally, look like playboy playmates), making appts. for staff lunches, plus bag-loads of free drugs and other goodies. It's really more than disheartening, it's sickening. Is it really any wonder we are losing our trust in the conventional medical and scientific community?
On the other hand, I'm not ready to throw out the baby with the bath-water as they say, as I am a degreed and licensed health-care professional myself, and know what it takes to acquire the knowledge and skill required to practice. But, wow, what a difference in the educational setting and it's ideals, and the real-world, for-profit medical community. The priority is not "how" you treat any longer, but "how many" you treat in a day that counts.
You have rightly pointed out the dangers of non-credentialed "experts" well. While you lean heavily to one side, and JLeigh more to the other side, the fact is, we all need to educate ourselves the best we can, as the bottom line is, we are our own best health-care advocates.
edited to add: I realize my comments are rather tangential to the argument of this thread; I should have added that as part of being our own best health-care advocates, we MUST be allowed to make our own choices! (There does that make it more relative to the discussion?)
The real dangers of fresh milk... From
Milk Man Kills Girls at Pa. Amish School
Oct 02 3:19 PM US/Eastern  
Associated Press Writer

A 32-year-old milk truck driver took about a dozen girls hostage in a one-room Amish schoolhouse Monday, barricaded the doors with boards and killed at least three girls and apparently himself, authorities said.
It was the nation's third deadly school shooting in less than a week, and similar to an attack just days earlier at a school in Colorado.
The gunman, identified as Charles Carl Roberts IV, was inside for over half an hour and had barred the doors with 2x4s with the girls inside, State Police Commissioner Jeffrey B. Miller said. By the time officers broke windows to get in, three girls and the gunman were dead, Miller said.
Lancaster County Coroner G. Gary Kirchner initially said six people were killed, but later said he wasn't certain. At least seven people were taken to hospitals, including at least three girls in critical condition with gunshot wounds.
Roberts walked into the one-room West Nickel Mines Amish School with a shotgun and handgun, then released about 15 boys, a pregnant woman and three women with infants before barring the doors, Miller said.
The girls were lined up along a blackboard and their feet were bound, he said.
A teacher called police around 10:30 a.m. and reported that a gunman was holding students hostage.
About 11 a.m., Roberts apparently called his wife from a cell phone, saying he was "acting out in revenge for something that happened 20 years ago," Miller said. "It seems as though he wanted to attack young, female victims."
Moments later, Roberts told a dispatcher he would open fire on the children if police didn't back away from the building. Troopers heard gunfire in the building seconds later.
The school has about 25 to 30 students in all, ages 6 to 13.
"It seems as though he wanted to attack young, female victims," Miller said. He released no further details about that what the grudge Roberts mentioned could have involved.
The school is among farmlands just outside Nickel Mines, a tiny village about 55 miles west of Philadelphia. Hours after the shootings, about three dozen people in traditional Amish clothing, hats and bonnets stood near the small building, surrounded by a white board fence, as investigators walked in line through fields searching for evidence.
The shootings were disturbingly similar to an attack last week at Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, Colo., where a man took several girls hostage in a school classroom and then killed one of them and himself. Authorities said the man in Colorado sexually molested the girls.
"If this is some kind of a copycat, it's horrible and of concern to everybody, all law enforcement," said Monte Gore, undersheriff of Park County, Colo.
"On behalf of Park County and our citizens and our sheriff's office, our hearts go out to that school and the community," he said.
I have had two doctors seriously misdiagnose me and put me on heavy duty drugs and subject me to very painful and expensive tests. When, both times, their treatments weren't working, I started looking in the homeopathic direction. Homeopathy worked where those doctors had failed. My daughter had horrible migraines at least 3 times a week. I have taken her to specialists and eye doctors, she's had head scans etc etc. Prescription pain meds wouldn't even work - they would just take the edge off. In frustration I turned to homeopathy once again. It worked. She rarely has a headache now and when she does, I give her the homeopathic remedy which cures it in 10-15 minutes.
As silly as it sounds, I haven't had to go for prescription antibiotics since I discovered homeopathy - I have cured myself, my daughter and even my animals of infections, simply because I have discovered a natural antibiotic.
As for raw milk, I was heading towards full-blown lactose intolerance with grocery store dairy - I was fast not being able to tolerate it at all. Not anymore.
I don't trust the medical profession. They, as a rule, completely write off anything that smells of the holistic, which is a huge error on their part. Holistic medicine has been around, and worked, for centuries. But they could care less. They believe that only they have "The Deposit of Medicine" and that everything else is "quackery". There are a few doctors who blend the holistic and the conventional medicine, but most of them keep it heavily under wraps, lest their colleagues find out. My mom's doctor is one of those. She has made it painfully clear that she has to keep her views on natural medicine a secret or the backlash will be severe and potentially career threatening. However, eventually the medical profession will have to open its eyes because there is a major trend towards natural medicines and foods going on, and it's already starting to affect their pocketbooks.
I also do not believe that just because "Nature Bob" said it's so, doesn't make it so. If Bob says that raw milk cures all ailments, then I'm going to laugh at him because that doesn't make any sense. But if Bob says that eating natural, non-treated foods and drinking raw organic milk is healthier for you than genetically modified, pesticide treated, processed foods and homogenized, pasteurized milk, I'm going to take that more seriously because it makes sense. Does that mean I live on organic seaweed? Of course not - I like Lucky Charms as much as the next guy. I even enjoy *gasp* Kraft Mac & Cheese! It only means that a switch to healthier things where I can, including raw milk.
The way some people carry on when I talk about natural medicine, you'd think I was running into the woods each night chanting to the Forest Fairies and offering calves' intestines to the Moon Goddess. [Image: wink.gif]
What the bloody hell is going on here???

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