Catholic Work Ethic Vs. Protestant Work Ethic
#11
(05-15-2022, 01:56 PM)Drolo Wrote:
(05-14-2022, 01:34 PM)xsantiagox Wrote: wait england's religion is similar to catholicism? I thought they created a radical church which opposed any authority or learned preaching(meaning each person just read Bible and thinks what he wants).
What I meant to say is that Anglicanism is the least distant Protestant's branch from Catholicism among Protestants. Obviously they are still Protestant. But its system is the one that bears the closest resemblance to Catholicism, in fact many people consider Anglicanism a kind of "Middle Way" between both religions.

However, England is the origin of the Industrial Revolution, while Calvinist Holland (remember that Calvinism is the best example of the Protestant Work Ethic according to Weber) was backward. Behind Belgium, North Italy or the France of the Monarchical Catholic Restoration after Napoleon.
Xsantiagox: Anglicanism definitely has a tradition of hierarchical authority (archbishops, bishops) and learned preaching (e.g. Oxford). What you are referring to is from the English non-conformists primarily. That’s why all the more radical groups often came to America.
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#12
My apologies in advance if I'm looking too harsh here. But I'm wanting to get back on topic here. Therefore again...

What is the difference between the "Protestant Work Ethic", which American society operated under since it's inception, and the "Catholic Work Ethic" which was replaced long ago?

I ask this since most folks, including most Catholics, have no idea what both of them are. Nor do they know why we should favor and practice the Catholic Work Ethic over the Protestant one.

Nor do they know the Calvinist roots of the Protestant Work Ethic - - that is, if I'm not remembering it wrong.

And again.......

Hopefully this can be put in an a-b-c style fashion due to the reduced comprehension skills so many Americans and others suffer under.


So Vox, Jovan and anyone else, any insights you have will be greatly appreciated.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." - G. K. Chesterton
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#13
Catholics are afraid of wealth, because so far one has to exploit other people to gain additional wealth. One man however bright it might be could create only very limited amount of wealth. That is why he had to create organization to exploit other people and gain additional wealth in such way. There was no wealth without exploitation of other people and nature so far.

AI, AGI and robotics is changing this. There can be additional wealth extract from the machine work and additional resources recycle from wastelands and renewables. Now and in the future there is and won't be need to exploit other people/nature to gain wealth. That is why there will be ethical paths to wealth that will involve the creative work for creation of machines and AI. This work will be ethical. Even more so when its fruits can be hared the the poor people and for the supporting of Church.

So - in summary - Catholic outlook on work and wealth has been very cautious. But I sketch the need for redefinition of the Catholic theology of work and wealth.

Protestants had less understanding about social justice and we could see this in Vienna and other industrial cities around start of 20th Century. The life of workers was quite sad.
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#14
(05-16-2022, 03:51 PM)HailGilbert Wrote: My apologies in advance if I'm looking too harsh here. But I'm wanting to get back on topic here. Therefore again...

What is the difference between the "Protestant Work Ethic", which American society operated under since it's inception, and the "Catholic Work Ethic" which was replaced long ago?

I ask this since most folks, including most Catholics, have no idea what both of them are. Nor do they know why we should favor and practice the Catholic Work Ethic over the Protestant one.

Nor do they know the Calvinist roots of the Protestant Work Ethic - - that is, if I'm not remembering it wrong.

And again.......

Hopefully this can be put in an a-b-c style fashion due to the reduced comprehension skills so many Americans and others suffer under.

So Vox, Jovan and anyone else, any insights you have will be greatly appreciated.
 
Well, for one, Catholics don't have any notion of a "prosperity gospel" -- the idea that God always makes His people materially rich, that living right will always result in material wealth, etc. -- or, conversely, that poverty is a moral shame, a sign of sin, etc. The Protestant focus on the resurrected Christ at the expense of the Suffering Christ leads to some warped thinking.

Work has the purpose of achieving various goals. If the goals are good, and the means of achieving the goals are good, then the work done to achieve those goals is good. If the person doing the good work has the right intent, then all is well. If one of those things is messed up (the goal of the work, the means of the work, or intent of the worker), then there are problems.

The moral virtues are where Catholics focus, and fortitude is doing what's necessary in spite of difficulties (IOW, work).  Eutrapelia -- play, mirth, recreation -- though, is also a virtue, an aspect of temperance. Catholics believe that "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." IOW, Catholics see work in a more balanced way than many Prots seem to.
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#15
(05-16-2022, 04:01 PM)arnaud Wrote: Catholics are afraid of wealth, because so far one has to exploit other people to gain additional wealth. One man however bright it might be could create only very limited amount of wealth. That is why he had to create organization to exploit other people and gain additional wealth in such way. There was no wealth without exploitation of other people and nature so far.

AI, AGI and robotics is changing this. There can be additional wealth extract from the machine work and additional resources recycle from wastelands and renewables. Now and in the future there is and won't be need to exploit other people/nature to gain wealth. That is why there will be ethical paths to wealth that will involve the creative work for creation of machines and AI. This work will be ethical. Even more so when its fruits can be hared the the poor people and for the supporting of Church.

So - in summary - Catholic outlook on work and wealth has been very cautious. But I sketch the need for redefinition of the Catholic theology of work and wealth.

Protestants had less understanding about social justice and we could see this in Vienna and other industrial cities around start of 20th Century. The life of workers was quite sad.

I've never met a Catholics who is "afraid of wealth," and no one has to exploit anyone to become wealthy.
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#16
(05-16-2022, 04:30 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote:
(05-16-2022, 04:01 PM)arnaud Wrote: Catholics are afraid of wealth, because so far one has to exploit other people to gain additional wealth. One man however bright it might be could create only very limited amount of wealth. That is why he had to create organization to exploit other people and gain additional wealth in such way. There was no wealth without exploitation of other people and nature so far.

AI, AGI and robotics is changing this. There can be additional wealth extract from the machine work and additional resources recycle from wastelands and renewables. Now and in the future there is and won't be need to exploit other people/nature to gain wealth. That is why there will be ethical paths to wealth that will involve the creative work for creation of machines and AI. This work will be ethical. Even more so when its fruits can be hared the the poor people and for the supporting of Church.

So - in summary - Catholic outlook on work and wealth has been very cautious. But I sketch the need for redefinition of the Catholic theology of work and wealth.

Protestants had less understanding about social justice and we could see this in Vienna and other industrial cities around start of 20th Century. The life of workers was quite sad.

I've never met a Catholics who is "afraid of wealth," and no one has to exploit anyone to become wealthy.

But why there are so few saints who have created their wealth in their lifetime or who were exceptional masters of their job?

I know only 3 such saints:
prohet Daniel
medieval monk-painter Fra Angelico
French king Louis IX - while he certainly inherited his kingdom, he was exceptional administrator and statesman and that could count as well, he didn't just redistribute the inherited wealth

I you can name more such saints, it would be very helpful for me and others.
I am not making and argument here, I am just trying to integrate my Catholic faith (as it is) with the live in modern businesses and some guidance would be helpful. I am aware about Opus Dei and I am reading about some from time to time, but they have some 7 saints only and I don't remember any one to be dear to me.
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#17
He's not a saint... at this point... but Archbishop Sheen was extraordinary both at promulgating the Faith and generating revenue for his efforts... all of which he remitted to the Church, I believe.
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#18
(05-16-2022, 05:34 PM)arnaud Wrote: But why there are so few saints who have created their wealth in their lifetime or who were exceptional masters of their job?

I know only 3 such saints:
prohet Daniel
medieval monk-painter Fra Angelico
French king Louis IX - while he certainly inherited his kingdom, he was exceptional administrator and statesman and that could count as well, he didn't just redistribute the inherited wealth

I you can name more such saints, it would be very helpful for me and others.
I am not making and argument here, I am just trying to integrate my Catholic faith (as it is) with the live in modern businesses and some guidance would be helpful. I am aware about Opus Dei and I am reading about some from time to time, but they have some 7 saints only and I don't remember any one to be dear to me.

Most Saints were religious, who take vows of poverty. But there've been a number of materially rich Saints -- all the king and queen Saints, aside from King St. Louis IX whom you name (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:R...yal_saints). SS St. Katharine Drexel and Elizabeth Ann Seton are two non-royal Saints who had money. St. Helena, the mother of Constantine, had money. St. Thomas More wasn't broke. Etc.
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#19
(05-16-2022, 05:42 PM)VoxClamantis Wrote:
(05-16-2022, 05:34 PM)arnaud Wrote: But why there are so few saints who have created their wealth in their lifetime or who were exceptional masters of their job?

I know only 3 such saints:
prohet Daniel
medieval monk-painter Fra Angelico
French king Louis IX - while he certainly inherited his kingdom, he was exceptional administrator and statesman and that could count as well, he didn't just redistribute the inherited wealth

I you can name more such saints, it would be very helpful for me and others.
I am not making and argument here, I am just trying to integrate my Catholic faith (as it is) with the live in modern businesses and some guidance would be helpful. I am aware about Opus Dei and I am reading about some from time to time, but they have some 7 saints only and I don't remember any one to be dear to me.

Most Saints were religious, who take vows of poverty. But there've been a number of materially rich Saints -- all the king and queen Saints, aside from King St. Louis IX whom you name (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:R...yal_saints). SS St. Katharine Drexel and Elizabeth Ann Seton are two non-royal Saints who had money. St. Helena, the mother of Constantine, had money. St. Thomas More wasn't broke. Etc.

My question was not about inherited wealth. We know that inherited wealth could be quite dirty, sometimes really, really dirty. SS Drexel and Seton inherited their wealth, I am sure that St. Helena didn't work either. I am not sure about St. Thomas More (thanks for suggestion!) - I will check him. Maybe he truly was self-made man from whom I could learn something.
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#20
One additional resource that could be helpful for OP - there is Council for Inclusive Capitalism https://www.inclusivecapitalism.com/about/ - I am checking now it and there is no mention about strong links with Pope Francis that were formed some years ago and reported e.g.
https://www.coalitionforinclusivecapital...n-council/

and

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